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DG-FNR

Proven Member
229
44
Oct 21, 2002
Geary, NB_Canada
> I just wanna know what happened to the deer leg?

LOL!

I haven’t thought of that in a *long* time!
 

Ludachris

Founder & Zookeeper
7,894
2,518
Nov 12, 2001
Newcastle, California
But I do know that NABR’s private section was *the* engine of DSM innovation for a big chunk of time, and that almost none of that discussion ever made it to the public sections. Losing that history is a tremendous loss.
That is too bad. But that's just how it was always going to play out given the private nature of the group. It's unfortunate.

Personally, I think it could have been a much more powerful and impactful resource to more DSMers had it not been so nasty and ruthless (and private), even though they made it that way for certain reasons. But that's just it, it wasn't meant to be for the masses. That was part of the allure for some.

I'm one of the biggest introverts you'll ever meet, so I would never make it into the inner circle of any group like that. :idontknow:
 

bastarddsm

Proven Member
5,430
1,262
Aug 26, 2003
Mendota, Illinois
> I just wanna know what happened to the deer leg?

LOL!

I haven’t thought of that in a *long* time!
What sort of real discussions went on in there? I mean was there every detail on sheps run into the 7's? Sharing his tuneups, every aspect of the car, and things like that?
 

DG-FNR

Proven Member
229
44
Oct 21, 2002
Geary, NB_Canada
What sort of real discussions went on in there? I mean was there every detail on sheps run into the 7's? Sharing his tuneups, every aspect of the car, and things like that?
That depended on the personalities involved.

It was less like a blog where everyone reported everything they did, and more like “hey, I tried this, and this weird thing happened” “oh yeah, that happened to me, and I did this analysis, and tried this other thing, and that fixed it”.

It was a place full of peers who you could bounce ideas off of, more than a collection of reference material. But so much came out of those discussions that after a while they became a type of reference.

So if you encountered something that Shep had encountered once before, he might chime in with an idea on how to solve it. Or he might tell everyone about the problem, and then everyone would discuss the issue trying to figure out the answer. And with that many brains on the problem, you got a lot of viable answers.

Some guys were more active than others, some topics were more controversial, but the level of thought and experience aligned at the problem was in another flight level compared to public forums. All the experts in one place, and next to no noise.
 

CrackedDSM

Proven Member
1,896
558
Dec 17, 2009
Pensacola, Florida
Yeah, it was just the greatest forum ever and literally no one else has broken any of the records held by anyone on there, and no one is as cool as those who were privileged and alpha enough to be there. And man you weren’t even technically alive and not a single forum anywhere else had even a single tech except that one. Yuge. Bigly.


There. End of thread. We can move on now right?
 

Tyeler18

Proven Member
2,475
203
Dec 16, 2008
Casa Grande, Arizona
Yeah, it was just the greatest forum ever and literally no one else has broken any of the records held by anyone on there, and no one is as cool as those who were privileged and alpha enough to be there. And man you weren’t even technically alive and not a single forum anywhere else had even a single tech except that one. Yuge. Bigly.


There. End of thread. We can move on now right?
I think what he was getting at is that it was a near strictly tech forum without the fluff that tuners has. A quick refresh of the home page right now and the most recent threads (this one aside) are pretty basic (and well covered and/or easily diagnosed) topics. You don't see boostin, aaron gregory, or any of the other big dogs on here posting their tech information and thats more of what it was. Sure there's plenty of intelligent people here but when it comes to pushing the platform beyond it's current performance level you don't get that information on here.
 

CrackedDSM

Proven Member
1,896
558
Dec 17, 2009
Pensacola, Florida
I think what he was getting at is that it was a near strictly tech forum without the fluff that tuners has. A quick refresh of the home page right now and the most recent threads (this one aside) are pretty basic (and well covered and/or easily diagnosed) topics. You don't see boostin, aaron gregory, or any of the other big dogs on here posting their tech information and thats more of what it was. Sure there's plenty of intelligent people here but when it comes to pushing the platform beyond it's current performance level you don't get that information on here.


Might've been part of the message, but not the whole message. The whole message was essentially "we are better than everyone, and super chads because we had big dogs there, and no one else can touch us because we were all chads, every other forum sucks and none compare, our information was super duper ultra top secret stuff, u jelly".

No argument from me regarding most recent thread topics, but to play devils advocate...at least we have new topics being posted. What's being posted on NABR right now, again? :p


Full disclosure, I was 100% a DSMTalk guy and constantly hated on DSMtuners(or toon-town as I coined it). Thought it was a bunch of hand-holding pansies and disinformation everywhere, and PROPER forums beat the living crap out of you because MAN STUFF, BRO.

Older me has definitely moved on from that mindset and doesn't mind the more laid back/hand-holding aspects. The thing about 'Talk and NABR type sites is if you aren't in the "club", you never will be. It's like nobility vs peasants. Great if you're nobility, pretty damn bad if you're peasant and very VERY rarely could a peasant become nobility. Rose colored glasses and all that.
 

Tyeler18

Proven Member
2,475
203
Dec 16, 2008
Casa Grande, Arizona
Might've been part of the message, but not the whole message. The whole message was essentially "we are better than everyone, and super chads because we had big dogs there, and no one else can touch us because we were all chads, every other forum sucks and none compare, our information was super duper ultra top secret stuff, u jelly".

No argument from me regarding most recent thread topics, but to play devils advocate...at least we have new topics being posted. What's being posted on NABR right now, again? :p


Full disclosure, I was 100% a DSMTalk guy and constantly hated on DSMtuners(or toon-town as I coined it). Thought it was a bunch of hand-holding pansies and disinformation everywhere, and PROPER forums beat the living crap out of you because MAN STUFF, BRO.

Older me has definitely moved on from that mindset and doesn't mind the more laid back/hand-holding aspects. The thing about 'Talk and NABR type sites is if you aren't in the "club", you never will be. It's like nobility vs peasants. Great if you're nobility, pretty damn bad if you're peasant and very VERY rarely could a peasant become nobility. Rose colored glasses and all that.
You must not know who dennis grant is then and the plethora of information he's released to us via here, NABR, and his website farnorthracing? He's definitely none of what you described above.

As far as the hand holding I have no sympathy for the majority of the people on here when it comes to tech. That being said I have no issue helping people willing to help themselves and I have no problem with people wanting to help those not willing. Tuners is the best place for both in that aspect.

No argument from me regarding most recent thread topics, but to play devils advocate...at least we have new topics being posted. What's being posted on NABR right now, again? :p
Devil's advocate here too- where's all the information about RDV2, aarons car, or any of other contenders? Id take a collective of GOOD information over a library of bad
 

DG-FNR

Proven Member
229
44
Oct 21, 2002
Geary, NB_Canada
> literally no one else has broken any of the records held by anyone on there

Pretty sure Brent Rau’s record still stands dude.

> near strictly tech forum without the fluff that tuners has

Exactly this. And everyone involved (in the inner circle) was actively involved in racing, and/or was a vendor. So it was the bleeding edge of development at the time.

And when you consider it was most active right at the height of the import car boom, when all this shit was new - like, the first guy to put an aftermarket ECU in a DSM was Shep, and the second was *me*… … so we were all figuring this shit out for the first time, together.

To varying degrees, based on personality.

It was an incredible experience, I was super lucky to have been there, and I doubt that the conditions that led to its success will ever be replicated again. Too many things have moved on.

And yeah, I get the hate. The exclusivity that made NABR so successful was also its downfall. Standards for admission were so high that it became next to impossible to get in, and there were *far* too many people trying to get in because of the perceived cachet of gaining admittance (even though flaunting membership was the fast track to ejection - you don’t talk about Fight Club).

So when people moved on with their lives, there was nobody to replace them, and it died.

Such is the way of all things. The DSM Digest used to be the absolute centre of the DSM world. Then we moved to forums, but the explosion in forum traffic drove the creation of NABR to get away from the inanity that came with the influx of new people. The Digest was also something special, that worked for a time - until it didn’t.

I happen to have been there when it started - I bought (actually, *leased*) my 2G brand new in 1997. That car has less than 5k km on it when I won the bracket class at the Shootout in 1997, for example. So I remember how this stuff got built.

But I also stopped racing in 2005, sold my DSM just before I went to Afghanistan in 2008 - I haven’t been active in the DSM world since I got back, I have completely lost the bubble on DSM developments… because, like the rest of NABR, (for the most part) I moved on with my life.

I have a Stealth on the lift with the motor out that I will rebuild someday, I have an intermittent presence in the 3S world because of that - but I’m not pushing the envelope any longer, nor do I have any desire to do so.

All this to say - NABR was a hugely important, greatly under appreciated part of DSM history. People just don’t understand how influential it really was - largely by design. And what made it great ultimately killed it.

But at the same time, life has moved on. Innovation didn’t stop when NABR died. Many of the NABR-participant shops still exist. It’s part of the platform’s legacy.
 

Ludachris

Founder & Zookeeper
7,894
2,518
Nov 12, 2001
Newcastle, California
You don't see boostin, aaron gregory, or any of the other big dogs on here posting their tech information and thats more of what it was. Sure there's plenty of intelligent people here but when it comes to pushing the platform beyond it's current performance level you don't get that information on here.
You rarely see that in any one place anymore. Most of the recognized names don't participate in forums, groups, or any online communities very much at all, and if they do, they tend to have a pretty curated network of friends - and some do so more for business/PR reasons, not that there's anything wrong with that, but it's just different today than it was 10-15 years ago.

We've still got several fast guys in here who help out quite a bit. Maybe they're not record holders, maybe they are. Regardless, they're damn cool people for spending time in here in my book.

where's all the information about RDV2, aarons car, or any of other contenders?
Invite them in here to discuss it. I've invited people in here countless times. If they don't want to be part of one of the last dedicated online DSM communities, what can we do? I've gone out of my way to get feedback from some of the well known DSMers over the years in hopes of getting them more involved here. Some people have their small circles and it doesn't matter how much you do to try and bring them in to a community like this, they simply want to stick to their circles.

What can you do?

All this to say - NABR was a hugely important, greatly under appreciated part of DSM history.
That's the paradox about it, isn't it? It couldn't ever be fully appreciated because of its nature and how it was run. So much secrecy and restrictions that the greatness could never really be shared with the common folks.

Even now, the idea of sharing that data, even in read-only form, with the masses would never even be considered. Much of it probably revolves around older subjects and solutions, but I'd venture to guess it could be useful. Oh well.
 
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DG-FNR

Proven Member
229
44
Oct 21, 2002
Geary, NB_Canada
>It couldn’t ever be fully appreciated because of its nature and how it was run.

Which is why I felt the need to eulogize it - it’s time this history is better known.
 

Ludachris

Founder & Zookeeper
7,894
2,518
Nov 12, 2001
Newcastle, California
>It couldn’t ever be fully appreciated because of its nature and how it was run.

Which is why I felt the need to eulogize it - it’s time this history is better known.
You know what Dennis, for all of the nasty attitudes and trolling I had to deal with here over the years back then by people who used to frequent that forum (some of them later apologized funny enough) I’d like to sincerely thank you for your contributions here. You’ve always been genuine and put out some great info here. I think that says a lot about your character. It’s much appreciated. To this day there are people who don’t openly share info in forums like this. Thank you.
 

fourgsixty3

Proven Member
172
126
Sep 28, 2003
chicago, Illinois
You know what Dennis, for all of the nasty attitudes and trolling I had to deal with here over the years back then by people who used to frequent that forum (some of them later apologized funny enough) I’d like to sincerely thank you for your contributions here. You’ve always been genuine and put out some great info here. I think that says a lot about your character. It’s much appreciated. To this day there are people who don’t openly share info in forums like this. Thank you.
That's something I never understood, people not sharing ideas and solutions as if those concepts will somehow become watered down or taken for granted. That's how we advance as a community, is it not, to share something new we came up with or learned? Don't ask me about my favorite fishing spots though. Not telling you.:shhh:
 

DG-FNR

Proven Member
229
44
Oct 21, 2002
Geary, NB_Canada
> I’d like to sincerely thank you for your contributions here.

Thanks.

It’s rare to hear that expressed.

> people not sharing ideas and solutions as if those concepts will somehow become watered down or taken for granted.

That’s not what was going on in the NABR inner circle.

The problem NABR solved was threefold:

The first is that as soon as you get any sort of success, people automatically start f***ing with you.

Like, I had my own personal troll who followed me around from site to site, taking shots and trying to represent himself as an expert in my field. This very site made him a “wiseman”, FFS, when he couldn’t be trusted with anything more technical than a bicycle pump. This dude set out to chase me off the Internet, and you know what? It mostly worked. At NABR, when I got called out, I could trust that I had overlooked something from a technical perspective, and I could either hit the books or do an experiment to either prove I was right, or learn I was wrong - the point being, I didn’t need to worry about being trolled for the sake of trolling. And vice versa, if I had the data to prove a point, I knew it would be taken seriously, because nobody there had some bullshit vendetta and so had to automatically gainsay everything I posted.

It was such a *break* to be able to stand on the merits of the discussion alone. I had already proven myself to get in, that was no longer an issue. Dealing with that moron was *exhausting*.

The second was that a lot of guys on NABR were vendors, and copying/fraud was a real concern. There were products developed on NABR that were copied within *weeks* of release, so you only had a month or two to recoup your R&D costs and get yourself established before the ripoffs started. So it’s understandable that they wanted to keep the sausage-making while the thing was in development under wraps.

And the third was quality and trust. Everyone there had a literal track record to point to. They were known entities. You could back down your skepticism a little, and you could take them at their word - or the “NABR Mafia” would take action (and some guys who did shady shit got punted).

It’s hard to express how much stress was relieved when you didn’t have to worry about being trolled, scammed, or if the guy talking to you put up a good front but had the technical skills of a slime mold.

And that’s not to say that NABR was a giant circle of love - it was an Internet forum, we fought all the time (especially over politics) - but you could be yourself, without the public face mask, and trust that everyone else was doing the same.

But like the exclusivity both provided the value and resulted in the downfall, the openess of forums like this place are both the value and the Achilles’ heel. The fact that it is wide open means it has the potential for longevity, as there are always new members. But because there’s no way to legislate quality or vet expertise, it’s impossible to generate much more quality than the mean level of knowledge and experience - and there’s precious little reason for those on the right side of the curve to hang out, as they gain very little, but are subjected to so much harassment.

Look at how many posts in this thread are people who were compelled to throw rocks at a forum that they weren’t even part of and which was effectively dead a decade ago.

I generally don’t participate in forums any longer. If I want to put info out, I’ll write a book or make a YouTube video. You can yell at my book all you like (and I don’t have to hear it, and I already got paid) and on the video, I can delete bullshit comments with impunity (although I haven’t had to do that yet, other than spam.)
 

Stapl3

Proven Member
1,547
119
Oct 27, 2004
MI, Michigan
That's something I never understood, people not sharing ideas and solutions as if those concepts will somehow become watered down or taken for granted. That's how we advance as a community, is it not, to share something new we came up with or learned? Don't ask me about my favorite fishing spots though. Not telling you.:shhh:
Because it's all out there. There's basically nothing new. Any thought or idea can be searched and found on here or the dsmlink forum. Anything new is from someone that's been messing with the platform for 20 years, nearly daily, read thousands of hours on the forum, and are at the point of feeling like a MMA fighter watching a WWE match when it comes to reading a tech thread on here. There's a big divergence between those people and the average car guy in his early 20s. That is why they don't participate or bother explaining the same thing over and over, only to be ignored or contested. It's boring, unrewarding, and you feel dumber for doing it.

As the years go by it gets even worse. Not necessarily this platform, but just in general. You can now go get a new car, put your intake/exhaust/tune on it, make 600 hp like it's nothing, and suddenly the owner is a 'car guy' that other dudes flock to like they're local celebrities. Going to a car show or meet in a parking lot and talking with these people is f***ing impossible, and they're everywhere and growing by the year.
 
Last edited:

pauleyman

DSM Wiseman
7,973
2,595
Nov 19, 2011
oklahoma city, Oklahoma
I don't even know how I was a part of NABR. Things were crazy before then. Buschur and Glazer accusing each other for spying chasing 10s. 10s even.
Dennis I thank you also. Reading all the things years ago and now Chris with this forum. I would've left long ago had it not been for the friends and acquaintances I built on these forums and the digest. I may not be around forever but I stay trying to teach those that come along and hopefully they appreciate the blood sweat and tears that it took for this platform to get this far. I honestly can't think of another platform that has had this large of a following for this long doing what we as a collective group has done. DSMs are legendary and I think always will be to some degree because of the pedigree we have assigned them.
 

Ludachris

Founder & Zookeeper
7,894
2,518
Nov 12, 2001
Newcastle, California
Because it's all out there. There's basically nothing new. Any thought or idea can be searched and found on here or the dsmlink forum. Anything new is from someone that's been messing with the platform for 20 years, nearly daily, read thousands of hours on the forum, and are at the point of feeling like a MMA fighter watching a WWE match when it comes to reading a tech thread on here. There's a big divergence between those people and the average car guy in his early 20s. That is why they don't participate or bother explaining the same thing over and over, only to be ignored or contested. It's boring, unrewarding, and you feel dumber for doing it.

As the years go by it gets even worse. Not necessarily this platform, but just in general. You can now go get a new car, put your intake/exhaust/tune on it, make 600 hp like it's nothing, and suddenly the owner is a 'car guy' that other dudes flock to like they're local celebrities. Going to a car show or meet in a parking lot and talking with these people is f***ing impossible, and they're everywhere and growing by the year.
You sound like the curmudgeon I feel like I’ve become at times. But you’re not wrong and I get what you’re saying.
 

Tyeler18

Proven Member
2,475
203
Dec 16, 2008
Casa Grande, Arizona
You rarely see that in any one place anymore. Most of the recognized names don't participate in forums, groups, or any online communities very much at all, and if they do, they tend to have a pretty curated network of friends - and some do so more for business/PR reasons, not that there's anything wrong with that, but it's just different today than it was 10-15 years ago.

We've still got several fast guys in here who help out quite a bit. Maybe they're not record holders, maybe they are. Regardless, they're damn cool people for spending time in here in my book.


Invite them in here to discuss it. I've invited people in here countless times. If they don't want to be part of one of the last dedicated online DSM communities, what can we do? I've gone out of my way to get feedback from some of the well known DSMers over the years in hopes of getting them more involved here. Some people have their small circles and it doesn't matter how much you do to try and bring them in to a community like this, they simply want to stick to their circles.

What can you?


That's the paradox about it, isn't it? It couldn't ever be fully appreciated because of its nature and how it was run. So much secrecy and restrictions that the greatness could never really be shared with the common folks.

Even now, the idea of sharing that data, even in read-only form, with the masses would never even be considered. Much of it probably revolves around older subjects and solutions, but I'd venture to guess it could be useful. Oh well.
I wasn't trying to take a jab at tuners by any stretch if my post came off that way. My OG account is from 2004, never had a talk account and I've always been here because it had the best atmosphere. I just know that there was a place for NABR back then and a reason for its existence and that was to keep the fluff out. I dont expect any of these guys to come out and post their experiences, the drag community is too closed door and I don't see that ever changing. I personally couldn't care about the information anymore, I've pioneered the way through various other swaps/parts/platforms and have no problem diving in head first. I'm just here for the community still, and I have 7 4g powered cars that need parts:D
 

Ludachris

Founder & Zookeeper
7,894
2,518
Nov 12, 2001
Newcastle, California
I wasn't trying to take a jab at tuners by any stretch if my post came off that way. My OG account is from 2004, never had a talk account and I've always been here because it had the best atmosphere. I just know that there was a place for NABR back then and a reason for its existence and that was to keep the fluff out. I dont expect any of these guys to come out and post their experiences, the drag community is too closed door and I don't see that ever changing. I personally couldn't care about the information anymore, I've pioneered the way through various other swaps/parts/platforms and have no problem diving in head first. I'm just here for the community still, and I have 7 4g powered cars that need parts:D
No, I didn't take it that way. But I did want to give appreciation to the experienced people who do participate here. Appreciate you sticking around too.

Some people have this notion that the fastest and most experienced DSMers don't hang out here. I did respond to that point because I've seen that sentiment mentioned before. We do attract a lot of newcomers to the DSM world, obviously it being a public forum, but we do have a good group of fast people in here sharing their experiences openly, which I think is damned cool, especially since drag racing tends to be a sport where people don't always share their info and tricks openly.
 

defrag010

Proven Member
420
5
Sep 24, 2004
n/a, Alabama
> It's honestly super cringe

Not as “cringe” as a grown-ass man trying to use the kid’s TikTok slang to, what, seem younger? More relevant?

And you necro-threaded a two year old thread (and ended a decade long post hiatus) to throw shade?

Seriously?

Here’s an age-appropriate word for this behaviour: “pathetic”.

> Oh JFC, it was just a damn private circle jerk

At least this post served as a useful example as to why NABR’s private section was kept private.

Those that know, know. Those that don’t, hate.
It's people like you that made that forum toxic.. middle aged keyboard warriors who thought it was boot camp and that they were drill sergeants or something. I was there before natter died and stopped visiting altogether when activity slowed down on the site and the random junk box got lost in the mail. Posted just enough to stay off the radar for when they'd go through and ban everybody who hadn't posted in a specific amount of time. Private section was good but I learned just as much from hanging out with BJ when he was building Shep's engines. Again, it was nothing ground breaking.. stuff that fast drag racers had already been doing but just the first time anyone was trying it with the DSM platform.

For the normal members without the egos or personality disorders, we saw it for what it was: a toxic GOB den to lurk and stay up to date with what was going on in the DSM world. Nothing more.

I was google searching out of curiosity to see if there were any remnants of nabr left on the internet and this was the first thing that came up.. you glorifying it like it was Skunk Works. 😂 And I just had to remember my password so I could reply to how ridiculous your rendition of that site was and make sure people knew what was actually like.
 

bastarddsm

Proven Member
5,430
1,262
Aug 26, 2003
Mendota, Illinois
Yeah, it was just the greatest forum ever and literally no one else has broken any of the records held by anyone on there, and no one is as cool as those who were privileged and alpha enough to be there. And man you weren’t even technically alive and not a single forum anywhere else had even a single tech except that one. Yuge. Bigly.


There. End of thread. We can move on now right?
You've done nothing dsm related to be proud of, you can quit the passive agressive bs now. /thread.

It's people like you that made that forum toxic.. middle aged keyboard warriors who thought it was boot camp and that they were drill sergeants or something. I was there before natter died and stopped visiting altogether when activity slowed down on the site and the random junk box got lost in the mail. Posted just enough to stay off the radar for when they'd go through and ban everybody who hadn't posted in a specific amount of time. Private section was good but I learned just as much from hanging out with BJ when he was building Shep's engines. Again, it was nothing ground breaking.. stuff that fast drag racers had already been doing but just the first time anyone was trying it with the DSM platform.

For the normal members without the egos or personality disorders, we saw it for what it was: a toxic GOB den to lurk and stay up to date with what was going on in the DSM world. Nothing more.

I was google searching out of curiosity to see if there were any remnants of nabr left on the internet and this was the first thing that came up.. you glorifying it like it was Skunk Works. 😂 And I just had to remember my password so I could reply to how ridiculous your rendition of that site was and make sure people knew what was actually like.
point to the spot on this doll where the forum hurt you. I might not have ever seen a more ridculous statement, calling DG toxic. WTF.
 

defrag010

Proven Member
420
5
Sep 24, 2004
n/a, Alabama
The guy supposedly had a troll that followed him around everywhere that he seems to make himself a victim over. That kinda thing doesn't just happen to a regular well adjusted non-toxic person. Think about that for a minute...

IDGAF about that forum and never did, but it was a toxic environment led by toxic people. Not some elite utopia with top secret skunk works level of tech about little turbo 4 banger cars. I had to pipe in as a nabr member about his ridiculous portrayal with what it was actually like there.

Do you not remember all the nabr members that would go around on all the other DSM forums and troll/harass people just because they thought they were now suddenly part of an elite group? They did that because nabr was a toxic place that bred toxic people. It used to be so bad that any time nabr was mentioned here, ludachris would just tell them not to even talk about it.

 

DG-FNR

Proven Member
229
44
Oct 21, 2002
Geary, NB_Canada
> It's people like you that made that forum toxic..

Ow! I pulled my irony muscle reading that!

> I had to pipe in as a nabr member
> it was a toxic environment led by toxic people

Oh, my sides!

> Do you not remember all the nabr members that would go around on all the other DSM forums and troll/harass people

We may be approaching an irony singularity here!

I'll be right back - gotta spend 30 minutes with the foam roller working out this cramp...
 
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