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NABR down

davejcb

Probationary Member
18
17
Dec 1, 2002
Ottawa, ON_Canada
Hey all,

Noticed the board's been down for a few days on www.teamnabr.com, anybody know who runs it anymore? It'd be a shame for the Tech Archives to get lost...

Thanks!
 

Vegas Smith

20+ Year Contributor
5,037
2,915
Dec 2, 2002
Houston, Texas
I've contacted multiple people to try and get access to the board but nobody has been able to confirm my membership request. I think that site is completely asleep at the wheel. I'd love to read some of that stuff.
 

delta448

DSM Wiseman
3,590
248
Jan 13, 2006
Clarksburg, West_Virginia
Honestly I don't think you are really missing much. I never read anything there that wasn't documented elsewhere also. I stopped visiting that site long ago for reasons other than content. Participation was low and it was easy to understand why when new members were labeled FNG and met with hostility if they dared to post something.
 

bastarddsm

15+ Year Contributor
5,525
1,345
Aug 26, 2003
Mendota, Illinois
Honestly I don't think you are really missing much. I never read anything there that wasn't documented elsewhere also. I stopped visiting that site long ago for reasons other than content. Participation was low and it was easy to understand why when new members were labeled FNG and met with hostility if they dared to post something.
yeah holy hell would the fb forums crowd whine if they found their way to NABR. Guys were pretty ruthless, but it's about the only place the big dogs would post anything.
 

Vegas Smith

20+ Year Contributor
5,037
2,915
Dec 2, 2002
Houston, Texas
Honestly I don't think you are really missing much. I never read anything there that wasn't documented elsewhere also. I stopped visiting that site long ago for reasons other than content. Participation was low and it was easy to understand why when new members were labeled FNG and met with hostility if they dared to post something.
I was a member in like 2003 and yes, it was the pinnacle of internet tough-guy attitudes.
 

frosh29

Proven Member
293
31
Jul 29, 2004
Wallington, New_Jersey
Honestly I don't think you are really missing much. I never read anything there that wasn't documented elsewhere also. I stopped visiting that site long ago for reasons other than content. Participation was low and it was easy to understand why when new members were labeled FNG and met with hostility if they dared to post something.

FNG?

Annnnd nevermind, looked it up.

Nice people there I guess.
 

DG-FNR

Proven Member
229
49
Oct 21, 2002
Geary, NB_Canada
Man, the loss of historical knowledge and general corporate history. You cats have no idea.

NABR was established as a safe haven against the never-ending parade of posers who talked big but had nothing to back it up, or n00bs who were unwilling to read detailed articles and/or get their hands dirty. It was a refuge for those who did stuff away from the keyboard warriors.

The tech archives was the very tip of the iceberg; a public service where a small subset of tech info was released so the discussion around it could be monitored and likely members (who could be counted on to contribute) identified for deeper vetting.

The heart of NABR was the tightly locked down members' area, a scriptum sanctorum where the best of the best shared info on what they were working on, what experiments worked, and what didn't. You had to be somebody pushing the envelope to get in - or be vouched for by somebody who did - and you were held to an exceptional standard of proof. No "because I said so" Internet expert opinions, you had to show your work.

NABR drove almost every single DSM innovation from 1998 through 2008 or so. Every big name (and many that nobody knew about, or have since forgot about) was present on NABR. It was like the Linux kernel development list, except with 50 different Linus Torevalds participating.

It could be a harsh place - it had to be, as the standard was "excellence" and "truth". No relying on your name - you think something, prove it! You can't prove it, or try and get by with dancing and bullshit, you were going to get called out.

It was a combination of MIT and a bullring, the Lockheed SkunkWorks and a cockfighting pit. And it was GLORIOUS. And almost nobody outside of the inner circle knew about it, because we didn't want to be besieged by wannabies and posers trying to gain access purely for their own street cred. Rule 1 of NABR was don't talk about NABR and its careful filtering of wheat from chaff is what drove the competition and collaboration that built so many DSM successes.

Participation died a few years ago as so many left motorsports or had built enough in-house knowledge that they didn't need it any more. Some of us are literally dead. It is super sad to see it go offline, but man alive was it an amazing thing to be part of in its prime.
 

davejcb

Probationary Member
18
17
Dec 1, 2002
Ottawa, ON_Canada
Hey Dennis, nice to hear from you!

I emailed Ryan a little while back to see if he could bring the site back, said he'd check it out but haven't heard back.

It's a shame it's down, the Tech Archives should be public. It's also a piss-off to me personally since I just got a pristine 56K mile '90 TSi AWD and would love to still be able to search it! It went down days before I got the keys, brutal! I had a feeling it'd go down one day for good and we'd lose the Tech Archives! :(

Dave Ruel
 

Ludachris

Founder & Zookeeper
7,958
2,675
Nov 12, 2001
Newcastle, California
Man, the loss of historical knowledge and general corporate history. You cats have no idea.

NABR was established as a safe haven against the never-ending parade of posers who talked big but had nothing to back it up, or n00bs who were unwilling to read detailed articles and/or get their hands dirty. It was a refuge for those who did stuff away from the keyboard warriors.

The tech archives was the very tip of the iceberg; a public service where a small subset of tech info was released so the discussion around it could be monitored and likely members (who could be counted on to contribute) identified for deeper vetting.

The heart of NABR was the tightly locked down members' area, a scriptum sanctorum where the best of the best shared info on what they were working on, what experiments worked, and what didn't. You had to be somebody pushing the envelope to get in - or be vouched for by somebody who did - and you were held to an exceptional standard of proof. No "because I said so" Internet expert opinions, you had to show your work.

NABR drove almost every single DSM innovation from 1998 through 2008 or so. Every big name (and many that nobody knew about, or have since forgot about) was present on NABR. It was like the Linux kernel development list, except with 50 different Linus Torevalds participating.

It could be a harsh place - it had to be, as the standard was "excellence" and "truth". No relying on your name - you think something, prove it! You can't prove it, or try and get by with dancing and bullshit, you were going to get called out.

It was a combination of MIT and a bullring, the Lockheed SkunkWorks and a cockfighting pit. And it was GLORIOUS. And almost nobody outside of the inner circle knew about it, because we didn't want to be besieged by wannabies and posers trying to gain access purely for their own street cred. Rule 1 of NABR was don't talk about NABR and its careful filtering of wheat from chaff is what drove the competition and collaboration that built so many DSM successes.

Participation died a few years ago as so many left motorsports or had built enough in-house knowledge that they didn't need it any more. Some of us are literally dead. It is super sad to see it go offline, but man alive was it an amazing thing to be part of in its prime.
It was a different kind of community, that's for sure. It certainly wasn't meant to be for the masses, and I always thought that was really unfortunate since it could have helped educate way more people than it did. But that wasn't necessarily the goal for the people running it and all those participating. It was meant to be kept private. It was extremely strict and they were merciless - it definitely appealed more to those with brash personalities. They were very clear about it being their sandbox. If you didn't like it you could GTFO. I don't know that any online communities that were like that still exist.

Really sad to know that all that knowledge and information is now gone. Hell, I'd consider taking on the database to make it a searchable archive, but I don't know that it's meant to be open to the public. Those who contributed did so with the understanding that it would never be public (which seems strange but some people don't care to share their experiences with the masses).

I remember having to deal with some of those members coming in here just to troll our members for fun. The early 2k's were filled with drama - reminds me of the stuff taking place in FB groups today.

since I just got a pristine 56K mile '90 TSi AWD
How'd you find that? And how much did you have to pay for it @davejcb? Need some photos!
 
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davejcb

Probationary Member
18
17
Dec 1, 2002
Ottawa, ON_Canada
How'd you find that? And how much did you have to pay for it @davejcb? Need some photos!

A lovely gentleman on DSM Classifieds (Facebook) blessed me with this beautiful ride.

USD 10K (CDN 14K) for me + USD 2400$ for enclosed trailer from Seattle to Ottawa = lots in CDN $

She's cleeeeeeeeeean! :)

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Ludachris

Founder & Zookeeper
7,958
2,675
Nov 12, 2001
Newcastle, California
A lovely gentleman on DSM Classifieds (Facebook) blessed me with this beautiful ride.

USD 10K (CDN 14K) for me + USD 2400$ for enclosed trailer from Seattle to Ottawa = lots in CDN $

She's cleeeeeeeeeean! :)

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Wow, that's a great find! And I like the wheels in that last photo... very Shep-esque. Hope to see a vehicle profile and build thread for it. :thumb:
 

davejcb

Probationary Member
18
17
Dec 1, 2002
Ottawa, ON_Canada
Wow, that's a great find! And I like the wheels in that last photo... very Shep-esque. Hope to see a vehicle profile and build thread for it. :thumb:

Paid 2K (CDN) to get TE37s, Shep was the look I was going for :) Incidentally, searched NABR to see what wheels he ran! I'll do a write-up.
 

DamionGST

Proven Member
80
4
Sep 11, 2002
Little Rock, Arkansas
Dave, that is a beautiful car!

It's a damn shame about NABR. I got lucky and got in years ago because my old boss was on there. It was pretty ruthless, but it kept the BS to a minimum. It was like a necessary evil to make it so they could curate only the best information for the tech write ups. Back then, that was the only place you could get true and tested information like that. This site has came a long way since back then, and you can find a lot of the same information here now. It's still sad that place is gone now.
 

Ludachris

Founder & Zookeeper
7,958
2,675
Nov 12, 2001
Newcastle, California
I emailed Ryan a little while back to see if he could bring the site back, said he'd check it out but haven't heard back.
If they were open to the idea of me taking the database and setting up the public area as read-only, just to keep it available as a searchable archive, I'd be willing to try and do that.
 

LaserRS92

Supporting VIP
272
10
Aug 14, 2008
Fort Wayne, Indiana
If they were open to the idea of me taking the database and setting up the public area as read-only, just to keep it available as a searchable archive, I'd be willing to try and do that.

I really hope that's an option. I snuck into NABR over 10 years ago but lost track of it ever since. Wealth of information on there that few these days have the desire to seek out.
 

Stapl3

15+ Year Contributor
1,599
167
Oct 27, 2004
MI, Michigan
If they were open to the idea of me taking the database and setting up the public area as read-only, just to keep it available as a searchable archive, I'd be willing to try and do that.
I probably have a better chance of marrying Natalie Portman and cheating on her with Margot Robbie than NABR being archived on dsmtuners.
 

Ludachris

Founder & Zookeeper
7,958
2,675
Nov 12, 2001
Newcastle, California
I probably have a better chance of marrying Natalie Portman and cheating on her with Margot Robbie than NABR being archived on dsmtuners.
LOL that’s not what I meant - if I were to host it, it would remain on it’s own domain, separate from this forum. I wouldn’t even consider trying to put it on this domain. But you’re probably right, I’m guessing that sentiment would still get in the way - the guy in charge of “toonerz” hosting it would be sacrilege to some, the information would be better off dead... as strange as that mindset/logic might sound to many DSMers.
 

Pube Stache

Proven Member
89
3
Jun 13, 2004
Toledo, Ohio
Like usual, I'm out of the loop with news. I joined Nabr back in 2004. Tonight I wanted to see what was said about Curt Brown's death. I'd love to read the politics forum on their now! It was as good as the dsm conversation often times. Bummed to see it gone.
 

defrag010

Proven Member
420
7
Sep 24, 2004
n/a, Alabama
Man, the loss of historical knowledge and general corporate history. You cats have no idea.

NABR was established as a safe haven against the never-ending parade of posers who talked big but had nothing to back it up, or n00bs who were unwilling to read detailed articles and/or get their hands dirty. It was a refuge for those who did stuff away from the keyboard warriors.

The tech archives was the very tip of the iceberg; a public service where a small subset of tech info was released so the discussion around it could be monitored and likely members (who could be counted on to contribute) identified for deeper vetting.

The heart of NABR was the tightly locked down members' area, a scriptum sanctorum where the best of the best shared info on what they were working on, what experiments worked, and what didn't. You had to be somebody pushing the envelope to get in - or be vouched for by somebody who did - and you were held to an exceptional standard of proof. No "because I said so" Internet expert opinions, you had to show your work.

NABR drove almost every single DSM innovation from 1998 through 2008 or so. Every big name (and many that nobody knew about, or have since forgot about) was present on NABR. It was like the Linux kernel development list, except with 50 different Linus Torevalds participating.

It could be a harsh place - it had to be, as the standard was "excellence" and "truth". No relying on your name - you think something, prove it! You can't prove it, or try and get by with dancing and bullshit, you were going to get called out.

It was a combination of MIT and a bullring, the Lockheed SkunkWorks and a cockfighting pit. And it was GLORIOUS. And almost nobody outside of the inner circle knew about it, because we didn't want to be besieged by wannabies and posers trying to gain access purely for their own street cred. Rule 1 of NABR was don't talk about NABR and its careful filtering of wheat from chaff is what drove the competition and collaboration that built so many DSM successes.

Participation died a few years ago as so many left motorsports or had built enough in-house knowledge that they didn't need it any more. Some of us are literally dead. It is super sad to see it go offline, but man alive was it an amazing thing to be part of in its prime.
Oh JFC, it was just a damn private circle jerk forum where a bunch of middle age men with fast DSM's and personality disorders who thought they were elite brahmens could flex their egos and take their anger out on people they felt were beneath them. Some new member would say something they didn't like and mods would rage and ban every person who was from the same state. It was a toxic echo chamber full of good 'ol boys stroking each other off, and that's why it died off.. because the whole car platform's spiral into irrelevance meant people didn't need to put up with that kind of toxic environment anymore. Early/mid 2000's internet is the only time period where a forum like that could actually exist, if somebody tried to create something similar today it would be irrelevant right out of the gate.

It's just a little compact car platform, not f***ing MIT or Skunkworks. 🙄 "Innovation" was driven by the individual people.. Shep, Marco, Buschur, Kiggly, etc. Nabr was just where they all hung out. The same "innovation" would have happened even if nabr didn't exist. And in the grand scheme, the "innovation" of the DSM platform was many years behind other more popular platforms. They weren't breaking any speed records or anything.. just being a group with the fastest cars of a specific compact car platform. The fastest dsm guys on nabr didn't even come close to the leaderboard for fastest street cars. They were big fish when it came to DSM stuff, but when zoomed out to the scope rest of the car world, they were guppies.

It's honestly super cringe to see anybody still glorifying that place as as some elite "sanctorum" 15 years after it became irrelevant. It became irrelevant for a reason.
 

Ludachris

Founder & Zookeeper
7,958
2,675
Nov 12, 2001
Newcastle, California
Oh JFC, it was just a damn private circle jerk forum where a bunch of middle age men with fast DSM's and personality disorders who thought they were elite brahmens could flex their egos and take their anger out on people they felt were beneath them. Some new member would say something they didn't like and mods would rage and ban every person who was from the same state. It was a toxic echo chamber full of good 'ol boys stroking each other off, and that's why it died off.. because the whole car platform's spiral into irrelevance meant people didn't need to put up with that kind of toxic environment anymore. Early/mid 2000's internet is the only time period where a forum like that could actually exist, if somebody tried to create something similar today it would be irrelevant right out of the gate.

It's just a little compact car platform, not f***ing MIT or Skunkworks. 🙄 "Innovation" was driven by the individual people.. Shep, Marco, Buschur, Kiggly, etc. Nabr was just where they all hung out. The same "innovation" would have happened even if nabr didn't exist. And in the grand scheme, the "innovation" of the DSM platform was many years behind other more popular platforms. They weren't breaking any speed records or anything.. just being a group with the fastest cars of a specific compact car platform. The fastest dsm guys on nabr didn't even come close to the leaderboard for fastest street cars. They were big fish when it came to DSM stuff, but when zoomed out to the scope rest of the car world, they were guppies.

It's honestly super cringe to see anybody still glorifying that place as as some elite "sanctorum" 15 years after it became irrelevant. It became irrelevant for a reason.
Funny how it's a matter of perspective. Some people absolutely loved how that site was run, they loved the military-like atmosphere and the verbal lashings for anyone who stepped out of line. They appreciated the keyboard beat downs to help preserve a certain culture. Others didn't love the "Lord of the Flies" aspect of it all but they appreciated the other aspects of it. Different strokes for different folks.
 

DG-FNR

Proven Member
229
49
Oct 21, 2002
Geary, NB_Canada
> It's honestly super cringe

Not as “cringe” as a grown-ass man trying to use the kid’s TikTok slang to, what, seem younger? More relevant?

And you necro-threaded a two year old thread (and ended a decade long post hiatus) to throw shade?

Seriously?

Here’s an age-appropriate word for this behaviour: “pathetic”.

> Oh JFC, it was just a damn private circle jerk

At least this post served as a useful example as to why NABR’s private section was kept private.

Those that know, know. Those that don’t, hate.
 

Ludachris

Founder & Zookeeper
7,958
2,675
Nov 12, 2001
Newcastle, California
Those that know, know. Those that don’t, hate.
Or again, some people are simply drawn to certain types of community atmospheres, others aren't. Doesn't mean they're hating on it, just not into that vibe. But others loved it. Different strokes for different folks.
 

fourgsixty3

15+ Year Contributor
255
202
Sep 28, 2003
chicago, Illinois
NABR was a place where people actually used the search function. Laziness was not tolerated. It was a forum where some very bright minds went to share ideas and get away from the "t00ner" mentality of that era. Was it ruthless? Yes. Was it informative? Yes. That being said, I wish we still had access to the tech section although I'm pretty sure we can find most of the info here.
 

DG-FNR

Proven Member
229
49
Oct 21, 2002
Geary, NB_Canada
What a bunch of people don’t know though is that there were multiple layers to the NABR onion. Anyone who wasn’t invited the the innermost layer didn’t get to see the “real” NABR.

And yeah, the outer, public-facing layer was nasty. It was kept that way on purpose, to try and see what people’s true colours were like before inviting them to the inner stuff. It was conceived as a kind of gauntlet to be run to earn your place.

It’s arguable how well that worked, because very few people were ever promoted out of the public site, and fewer still ever made it to the really good stuff.

I wasn’t part of the site admin group; I was there for the tech stuff (and to occasionally tweak noses on the internal political forum, as the “token liberal Canadian”). It wasn’t my site, so I didn’t get involved with “who gets in” discussions.

I do remember though considerable discussion going on about the admissions process, and how to vet people who nobody might know personally. The voucher/sponsor system worked great for keeping the quality in the innermost layer high, but it also made bringing in new blood very difficult. And I don’t think they ever quite cracked that nut - to the end that the inner circle stayed pretty small.

And to be honest, I’m not sure that there wasn’t *another* layer, deeper in, that I wasn’t part of. I would not be at all surprised if that was the case.

But I do know that NABR’s private section was *the* engine of DSM innovation for a big chunk of time, and that almost none of that discussion ever made it to the public sections. Losing that history is a tremendous loss.
 
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