My new e85 16g setup!!

[DSMsOwnYourV8]

Yeah I was thinking he should take it to Jacks' too.

 

[Black_Bullet]

Ay Jayrolla,

I dont know if this post will at all be relevant or helpful for you
but today I was experiement on desensitizing the knock sensor a bit on my car to see the results.

Well anyways the cars dialed in with a sharp tune and id never see more than like 4-8 counts thru the gears on average. Never more than 9 max in any occasion. A lot of people would consider this very conservative and that I could push more.... I dont , I feel its just right for mines as a DD and I dont plan on tuning more aggressive.
But anyways, in experimentation, before I decied to log my car, I loosened up the knock sensor and left it only hand tight and the knock counts remained the same. Then next thing I know its showing up like 43 counts of knock when I was NLTS shifting, therefore it had wiggled loose on me and i was hitten some bad PK with it like that.

Ive never seen my logger ever go to 43 counts of knock under any circumstance, so I figure possibly it being too loose that caused that. Then I tightened it back up ( just to a lower torque spec than originally.)
and all the knock was back to the normal counts Ive always seen.
Then i took it out again, ( burning my arm in the process on a hot IM) and I teflon taped the threads on the KS and put it back in to its original torque specs ( probably a little less ) and all my knock counts were gone and the car was actually a tad bit faster...

I cant say I truely trust these results from the teflon, but I doubt the teflon could keep it from registering real knock that would be threating... I probably will tighten it back up a little bit tighter while leaving the teflon and see what that does, but I must note that I have no more phantom knock in the few places I was getting it before.
Just as a precautious till I experiement with this further, I backed out my timing a few degs everywere thats not under full boost/ WOT just to make sure I dont have knock when cruising or partial throttle while the knock sensor is desensitized.

I normally wouldnt recommend anyone to do this, and I dont feel its something I should be telling people to do on my own behalf, but FWIW perhaps you can dampen your knock sensor a little bit as well and it may help your issue.

 

[JayRolla]

Ay Jayrolla,

I dont know if this post will at all be relevant or helpful for you
but today I was experiement on desensitizing the knock sensor a bit on my car to see the results.

Well anyways the cars dialed in with a sharp tune and id never see more than like 4-8 counts thru the gears on average. Never more than 9 max in any occasion. A lot of people would consider this very conservative and that I could push more.... I dont , I feel its just right for mines as a DD and I dont plan on tuning more aggressive.
But anyways, in experimentation, before I decied to log my car, I loosened up the knock sensor and left it only hand tight and the knock counts remained the same. Then next thing I know its showing up like 43 counts of knock when I was NLTS shifting, therefore it had wiggled loose on me and i was hitten some bad PK with it like that.

Ive never seen my logger ever go to 43 counts of knock under any circumstance, so I figure possibly it being too loose that caused that. Then I tightened it back up ( just to a lower torque spec than originally.)
and all the knock was back to the normal counts Ive always seen.
Then i took it out again, ( burning my arm in the process on a hot IM) and I teflon taped the threads on the KS and put it back in to its original torque specs ( probably a little less ) and all my knock counts were gone and the car was actually a tad bit faster...

I cant say I truely trust these results from the teflon, but I doubt the teflon could keep it from registering real knock that would be threating... I probably will tighten it back up a little bit tighter while leaving the teflon and see what that does, but I must note that I have no more phantom knock in the few places I was getting it before.
Just as a precautious till I experiement with this further, I backed out my timing a few degs everywere thats not under full boost/ WOT just to make sure I dont have knock when cruising or partial throttle while the knock sensor is desensitized.

I normally wouldnt recommend anyone to do this, and I dont feel its something I should be telling people to do on my own behalf, but FWIW perhaps you can dampen your knock sensor a little bit as well and it may help your issue.

Thanks for the post. If I was you I would add a little bit more timing than normal at boost where you think it would knock more. If you dont get knock then I would be worried. I know a few people used to block the hole on the sensor with jb weld and ended up with real bad results.

But you dont think just a very little teflon tape would stop the sensor from picking up any sound. Right now mine is hand tight, so I may just tighten it up and see what happens. After that I may go to another route like you said.

 

[Black_Bullet]

I think I recall Dsmonster used jb weld on his. Even then, real knock that was significant should be detectable by the sensor and the ppl you mentioned who had real bad results must've had horrible tunes

Most people claim that the stock KS is over sensitive, and too commonly picks up engine harmonics that may not be knock, not that you should fool with the KS too much but I do agree.

Matter fact there are a lot of cars that have overly anxious knock sensors that go off for several reason thus pulling timing/ power etc. suggesting maybe that the factory dials in their KS's to pick up sounds conservatively;
( The engine will get louder anyways the more power you make)
Obviously, that doesnt make for the best power production, for those having large phantom knock issues from just noisy engines in general. ( I remember TurboGlenn did a thread about this awhile back )

My tune is a good tune but not too aggressive and I never get over 10 counts under wot ever or my knock buzzer would go off. So whether it was real or fake I doubt it be significant.
But I have always had a bit of phantom knock on this car too.
I fixed most of it with solid motor mounts and fixing my 3in Megan DP from sitting smack against the Tcase due to the angle of the evo3 o2housing, but It will still come in situations such as NLTS, 2stepping,over revving
( pretty much anything that bounces off the rev limiter. ) or even at times just from downshifting .

Right now all my random knock counts have gone away but that could be good or bad depending how much the sensor has been desensistized, and there isnt much a way to measure that.

Could this Teflon tape be enough to block out real knock?
I wouldnt think so since real knock that was negligable should be a very audiable sound at least to the sensor, but anyway any other opinions on this?

Perhaps Ill tighten it down to stock specs but still leave the teflon tape and see the results.
Realistically some teflon tape shouldnt change much yet the knock counts have calmed down.
Idk, maybe Im just doing this for the sake of experiment but could still be useful none the less.

 

[JayRolla]

I do understand that is over sensitive. There where people that did the jb weld fix and it causes the KS to pick up nothing!! A guy at Jackstransmissions that I know real well did that to his KS and he blew his motor. Good tune but he just was running too much timing with his setup and knock killed his motor. He told me not to try that mod.

 

[Black_Bullet]

I do understand that is over sensitive. There where people that did the jb weld fix and it causes the KS to pick up nothing!! A guy at Jackstransmissions that I know real well did that to his KS and he blew his motor. Good tune but he just was running too much timing with his setup and knock killed his motor. He told me not to try that mod.

Yea definitly dont try that, for now ima just leave the teflon tape with it tighted down.
I only wrapped it around the threads in one or two layers.
But im not trying to push my tune any further than it has been anyways, I was just trying to
clear up some of the random PK or insignificant knock counts...

 

[Burnett03]

Why would you even consider JB welding in a knock sensor? Replace the sensor, or tune the car better.

 

[Black_Bullet]

Why would you even consider JB welding in a knock sensor? Replace the sensor, or tune the car better.

Did you even read the thread, he was just saying what one of his friends did, he nor I am planning on doing that. And we've been assuming that he's having phantom knock issues and not tuning issues since he's running e85.

 

[JayRolla]

Why would you even consider JB welding in a knock sensor? Replace the sensor, or tune the car better.

Dont just jump in here and post a useless post. You obviously didnt read this thread very well.

 

[Burnett03]

Did you even read the thread, he was just saying what one of his friends did, he nor I am planning on doing that. And we've been assuming that he's having phantom knock issues and not tuning issues since he's running e85.

I never said that to you, i was stating for anyone.. Why anyone would think that is a good idea. What's phantom knock? O that's the crap i used to get before i got dsmlink.

 

[JeffGST]

You need to stop playing with the knock sensor and just install it properly. That means with proper torque and no JB Weld or Teflon that desensitize it.

Phantom knock is just that. It's not real and it should be ignored because it happens at part throttle conditions only. Ignore it. Simple as that. Do you really care about the loss in timing and power while in vacuum conditions?

Knock that occurs in boost conditions should not be ignored. Installing a knock sensor improperly will inhibit the sensor from picking this up. Foolish in my mind.

I would personally just forget about it completely. 43 knock counts? So what, it at part throttle anyways. Concentrate on WOT knock.

 

[JayRolla]

You need to stop playing with the knock sensor and just install it properly. That means with proper torque and no JB Weld or Teflon that desensitize it.

Phantom knock is just that. It's not real and it should be ignored because it happens at part throttle conditions only. Ignore it. Simple as that. Do you really care about the loss in timing and power while in vacuum conditions?

Knock that occurs in boost conditions should not be ignored. Installing a knock sensor improperly will inhibit the sensor from picking this up. Foolish in my mind.

I would personally just forget about it completely. 43 knock counts? So what, it at part throttle anyways. Concentrate on WOT knock.

Well I do care because the PK will bring itself through the whole RPM band in wot all the way to redline. I get 49 counts and it will hold 20 counts all the way through unless I release the throttle real fast and back on it.

Also when getting the PK it causes the turbo to spool slower due to the low timing. I also dont have that cruisng power like when Im hitting 10psi. The power is horrible when I'm not wot and I have to use more throttle than I would like.

 

[JayRolla]

I never said that to you, i was stating for anyone.. Why anyone would think that is a good idea. What's phantom knock? O that's the crap i used to get before i got dsmlink.

I know thats the one of the best features on dsmlink. Wish I had $800 to waste on dsmlink but I dont. Have another kid on the way.

 

[Black_Bullet]

Well I do care because the PK will bring itself through the whole RPM band in wot all the way to redline. I get 49 counts and it will hold 20 counts all the way through unless I release the throttle real fast and back on it.

Also when getting the PK it causes the turbo to spool slower due to the low timing. I also dont have that cruisng power like when Im hitting 10psi. The power is horrible when I'm not wot and I have to use more throttle than I would like.

Yea PK can make your tune get real sloppy real fast, and i imagen its pulling your timing back real bad everytime you roll up on that much knock, and being that your knock decay rates are still stock it definitly is affecting your power output in boost.

Thats why I was trying to help you source out what you think could've been causing the PK. Im having trouble believeing that you'd have real knock right now on E85 as well...
I dont think desensitizing the knock sensor is a bad idea as long as you arent trying to desensitize it too much. I still find it impropable that a little teflon tape ( 1 layer ) would prevent it from picking up real knock.. But obviously, messing with the KS, you have to take responsibility of knowing what tune is ideal for your motor and etc.

Oh and just to add, retarded timing theoretically should cause your turbo to spool faster due to higher egts. BUT you will be slower, less torque so you basically just have less power therefore it just feels like its spooling slower but its just climbing rpms slower.
( If that makes any sense)

I know thats the one of the best features on dsmlink. Wish I had $800 to waste on dsmlink but I dont. Have another kid on the way.

I think you could get Dsmlink for 550 for everything, ( not that thats much better.)

Or you could look into burning your own eprom chips like I do.
Since you dont have a eprom ecu, you could buy pre socketed eprm with a ziff socket from Jeff at keydiver and then buy a eprom chip burner, a pack of rewriteable chips, and a ostrich ( and of course downloading and learning the programs i.e. evil scribe/ tunerpro)
and with all that you'd probably only be out of 350-400 bucks doing it that way.
Mainly because of the eprom ecu itself.... Setting up the chip burning stuff will only run you like 120-150.

I feel you on the budget issue, I was just lucky my car already had came with a eprom when i bought it, as I dont have much money to drop on big purchases for the car either..

 

[Burnett03]

. I get 49 counts .

The ecu only reads to 43, so how are you getting 49?

 

[JayRolla]

The ecu only reads to 43, so how are you getting 49?

Its called a typo!

 

[JayRolla]

While everyone else is out having fun today on this holiday. I will be pulling my tranny to fix the damn fork that broke. Fun Fun Fun!!!

 

[rrussell]

That sucks, good luck on the fork. It makes me wish I had bought a new one when i had my trans out.

I'm enjoying your write up. Trying to figure out if i will be going E85 or not keep up the good work.

 

[JayRolla]

Thanks man. It took me about 6 hours too pull it but that was with a lot of BS inbetween. Now just have to wait on the part. Also have to buy a slave because when the fork broke the slave boot ripped and the boot ripped from the slave itself.

Ohh and I wrapped one layer of teflon tape in front of the hole on the KS and will see if that helps get rid of some PK. I talked to a guy that fixed a pk issue a long time ago and he welded the knock sensor in and that got rid of outside noise. I dont think I will do that though, .

 

[Black_Bullet]

While everyone else is out having fun today on this holiday. I will be pulling my tranny to fix the damn fork that broke. Fun Fun Fun!!!

Well any idea why did it break?

Thanks man. It took me about 6 hours too pull it but that was with a lot of BS inbetween. Now just have to wait on the part. Also have to buy a slave because when the fork broke the slave boot ripped and the boot ripped from the slave itself.

Ohh and I wrapped one layer of teflon tape in front of the hole on the KS and will see if that helps get rid of some PK. I talked to a guy that fixed a pk issue a long time ago and he welded the knock sensor in and that got rid of outside noise. I dont think I will do that though, .

Yea dont weld the knock sensor, that sounds stupid.... How would you take it out when its old and all the goo is coming out?

And about the teflon thing, I wrapped the threads of the KS itself in 1 layer of teflon tape, I dont know what you mean " in front of the hole on the KS" ?

How much did you tighten it down? I just put mines hand tight, and then got the open wrench ( i believe was a 24mm) and gave it a few turns. Its not torqued down or anything, but enough that I cant loosen it up with my hand...

 

[JayRolla]

The 1g clutch fork was revised by mitsu awhile back because they where breaking on stock clutch's. My 2600 ACT plate just made it break faster. The new OEM one I bought is much thicker and you can tell they made it stronger. I will be installing it tomorrow. Sucks because it also took out my new OEM slave cylinder and had to get another one.

The 1g KS has a hole on the tip which is the mic pretty much. I put one layer in front of it and around the threads. The tightened it all the way and got a wrench and gave it one good snug. Maybe half a turn and it felt pretty tight already. What is the OEM torque rating if I could get a torque wrench on it?

 

[Black_Bullet]

The 1g clutch fork was revised by mitsu awhile back because they where breaking on stock clutch's. My 2600 ACT plate just made it break faster. The new OEM one I bought is much thicker and you can tell they made it stronger. I will be installing it tomorrow. Sucks because it also took out my new OEM slave cylinder and had to get another one.

The 1g KS has a hole on the tip which is the mic pretty much. I put one layer in front of it and around the threads. The tightened it all the way and got a wrench and gave it one good snug. Maybe half a turn and it felt pretty tight already. What is the OEM torque rating if I could get a torque wrench on it?

Oh ok I understand now, and im not sure the torque specs Ive heard different things and Im too lazy too look it up.
Well have you noticed any difference with it now, done any logs, did it change your timing curve?

 

[JayRolla]

Nope, everyone I know is busy and I cant get someone to help me put the tranny in. I tried with my crappy jack but alone I cant get it lined up. Tonight I'm having my dad come down since all my buddys ####yed out, .

Anyways once I get it back together tonight I will let you know how it goes. I'm thinking of turning the boost down to 20psi. Timing back at 3* for better idle and retune. Then add boost untill I have no more than 5 counts of knock. But its always inconsistent which makes tuning a PITA.

 

[JayRolla]

Car is back up and running. Clutch feels so much better.

The teflon tape over the KS did nothing. I still have all my PK. Boost is at 26psi and I get 8 counts max knock and thats when the car gets hot. First few runs usually show no knock.

 

[DSMsOwnYourV8]

That's awesome, I can't wait to see what my car is going to pull like on e85 at 20+ psi - it pulls pretty good now on pump gas at stock boost. It's going to be sic... Let me know if you get any dyno numbers up.