My new e85 16g setup!!

[JeffGST]

I was looking at some calculations and let me know what you guys think and if its correct. The RC 1200cc injectors are rated at 43.5psi and im planning on running 37psi FP. Now this rates the injectors at 1105cc's according to a calculation I found.

Now when I do the injector compensation formula (450/1100-1.0=.59 or -59%) I get a 59% correction. Take 30% off of that for the difference in E85 to start with and thats -29%. Now I think I will have to lean it out a bit but I dont think timing will be an issue since I wont have that much of a huge global correction. Thats the correction for 650's.

Right now Im running 16psi. Injector compensation is at -30% because Im running 550cc injectors with a n/a fpr and at that fp they are acting like 650cc's. Timing is at max 17* with the CAS at 2* base. I get about 5 counts of knock when boost hits at 3200rpm due to timing being at about 22* untill the ecu gets some airflow and starts to drop. Which is why I want e85 so bad because I cant get more than 15-18psi without knock due to timing and the 2g pistons.

With my calculations I think the timing will be fine and I will hit my mark on the boost if the e85 will allow it. Plus with the 16g boosting that hard it should drop a little timing due to airflow but it doesnt push much air. Let me know what you guys think.

The Global Fuel Calculation is wrong.

1G Base Fuel Pressure is 37 PSI. The ECU will always assume 37 PSI, so you do not use 1100cc in the compensation formula, even though that is what they will actually flow at 37 PSI. Instead use the 1200 figure in the calculation.

ALSO... You do not take -20% (not 30% from my experience) off the top of the global percentage. Take the -20% off of the injector flow instead.

1200 * .80 = 960cc

(450/960) - 1 = -53% Compensation

http://www.jeffgst.com/id20.html
Maximum timing for a 1G is 22 degrees at 6000 RPM as long as you are in the highest airflow timing map. Retarding the timing to 2 degrees BTDC will give you 19 degrees of peak timing throughout WOT tuning. This is an decent bandaid technique that will work OK until you get some decent engine management.

 

[JayRolla]

Thanks for the info. I think I may start with 25% off for the e85 just to stay safe on the afr. I would rather be to rich than lean on my first run anyways.

Maximum timing for a 1G is 22 degrees at 6000 RPM as long as you are in the highest airflow timing map. Retarding the timing to 2 degrees BTDC will give you 19 degrees of peak timing throughout WOT tuning. This is an decent bandaid technique that will work OK until you get some decent engine management.

So your saying no madder how much I compensate with the maf-t the timing will never go above 22*. In my experience Ive seen over 22* on the logger with 550's but its hard to trust a logger. I will do -50% on the first start up and then get my fuel trims inline, I want the global to be closest as possible so trims are good. I just cant wait to have 20+psi again. Havnt been able to run that much since I went with 2g pistons, the 1g timing map hates the higher compression.

 

[Black_Bullet]

Thanks for the info. I think I may start with 25% off for the e85 just to stay safe on the afr. I would rather be to rich than lean on my first run anyways.



So your saying no madder how much I compensate with the maf-t the timing will never go above 22*. In my experience Ive seen over 22* on the logger with 550's but its hard to trust a logger. I will do -50% on the first start up and then get my fuel trims inline, I want the global to be closest as possible so trims are good. I just cant wait to have 20+psi again. Havnt been able to run that much since I went with 2g pistons, the 1g timing map hates the higher compression.

Do you plan to track/ dyno so you can measure your results of switching e85?

 

[JeffGST]

So your saying no madder how much I compensate with the maf-t the timing will never go above 22*

Not true. "Never" is a strong word. Did you read the link I posted of my Timing Page on my website?

As long as you are on the highest airflow timing map (10+PSI), then you will not see more than 22 degrees at WOT. The problem is that you will be taking away -50% of the airflow away from the ECU, so you may or may not be on the highest timing map. E85 is very knock resistant anyways so you may benefit from the added timing.

 

[JayRolla]

Ohh I see that is true, I dont think it will be an issue. Ive never predynoed to e85 so I wont beable to tell the difference.

 

[Black_Bullet]

Ohh I see that is true, I dont think it will be an issue. Ive never predynoed to e85 so I wont beable to tell the difference.

Maybe you should go spend the 15 dollars and run down the track real quick before you start running e85 and then go back after your fully tuned on the corn juice just to compare difference in E/T Trap etc.

 

[JayRolla]

I dont even like to boost my car at the moment. At only 15psi I get 7-10 counts of knock due to to high of timing in lower rpms.

 

[JayRolla]

Well got my wbo2 back in and installed on this car. Also put some new t-bolt clamps on, fixed some boost leaks, set timing to 5* and she is ready to go. Tomorrow injectors come in and I will be on my way to the e85 station. I will post up results tomorrow.

 

[JeffGST]

I would grab a few fuel containers and fill them with E85. This way you can bring them home so that you can make sure you siphon ALL of that unleaded fuel out the tank.

It would be pointless to really tune if you are mixing unleaded with E85, UNLESS you are going to mix the two fuels all the time. This way you will really only need to adjust the tune on one tank instead of making additional changes on the next E85 fill up. By doing this, you are eliminating other variables that will change the way the motor reacts to the new fuel.

 

[Rob10_99]

You can run a megasquirt setup with an alcohol sensor that will compensate for between the two maps, at any percentages

 

[JayRolla]

I would grab a few fuel containers and fill them with E85. This way you can bring them home so that you can make sure you siphon ALL of that unleaded fuel out the tank.

It would be pointless to really tune if you are mixing unleaded with E85, UNLESS you are going to mix the two fuels all the time. This way you will really only need to adjust the tune on one tank instead of making additional changes on the next E85 fill up. By doing this, you are eliminating other variables that will change the way the motor reacts to the new fuel.

Thanks Jeff, when my buddy tuned my bro's car on e85 he just ran it real low almost till we where about to die and filled it up. On the next fill up it was hardly any adjustment to get the afr back inline.

 

[matthewdesigns]

^^^ That's what I did. Drove about 60 miles past the low fuel light, and hit the e85 station.

Good luck with the final install! I'm lovin' the stuff...burned through a 1/4 tank in an hour just joyriding around, with a huge smile on my face

 

[JayRolla]

^^^ That's what I did. Drove about 60 miles past the low fuel light, and hit the e85 station.

Good luck with the final install! I'm lovin' the stuff...burned through a 1/4 tank in an hour just joyriding around, with a huge smile on my face

Yea my bro tells me he can get 200 miles to a tank, but if he wanted too, he could get 50 miles to a whole tank. Gas mileage is not too bad if you stay out of boost, but that is so hard.

 

[JayRolla]

Well shipping on injectors took over a week longer than it should have so I barely had enough time after work to get them in and start tuning.

Very disappointed with my crappy car. I have her tuned to an 11.1-10.8 afr, 26psi holding 24psi to redline and 17* max advance. She is getting anywhere from 10-20 counts of knock depending on the run.

Not sure if its PK or what, but It usually doesnt affect me at higher rpms under WOT. Its almost if I run it around 10.0 it will go away but sometimes comes back. Knock sensor is new too, not sure what the issue is.

 

[turboglenn]

You can run a megasquirt setup with an alcohol sensor that will compensate for between the two maps, at any percentages

Another reason MSnS is becoming a more recomended ECU by myself around here. After tuning Ajax's car on the newer version of MSnS i have to say, while other ECU makers are sitting idle letting people be happy with what they produce the guys at megasquirt are definitely taking strides that are putting them ahead of the game in aftermarket ECU performance.

P.S. I am getting around 200 miles per tank on the corn juice myself (not too different than what i was getting on a rich pump gas tune)

 

[JayRolla]

I just remembered I'm still running 6es plugs but I dont think that would cause me to have this much knock. I have a new sensor, I may try to replace it again. Dont think I should be knocking.

I have gotten 50 miles on my first 1/4 tanks ive used and that was all tuning.

 

[Black_Bullet]

I just remembered I'm still running 6es plugs but I dont think that would cause me to have this much knock. I have a new sensor, I may try to replace it again. Dont think I should be knocking.

I have gotten 50 miles on my first 1/4 tanks ive used and that was all tuning.

So you have a wideband and you've verified AFR to be at 11.
Do you think its phantom or real knock, what rpm is it occuring?
A few things i can throw out that may help your knock issue -

BR7ES plugs ( instead of your current 6ES) make sure there nonprojected.
run a boost leak test
sea foam engine'
do you have heatshields over your exhaust components
cold air intake ( my intake temps dropped a consistent 40degs i also made a splash shield)
make sure your base timing is correct
make sure your knock sensor isnt over torqued. Even better have it loosely on the block.
run a compression test/ leak down ( if your smoking it could affect combustion?)

Can you post a log?
Other than that, your timing may still be too aggressive in the lower rpms when boost is at its highest thru peak torque and if you knock down low its likely to carry thru the whole pull. Though i know you shouldnt be having any knock w/ the e85 even with high boost adv timing, you have to remember every cars different.

Still sounds like an improvement though over your pumpgas tune since you can get some real boost now. Perhaps start with the boost a tad lower. FWIW, if you get it down to 5-10 counts of knock I wouldnt worry about it.

 

[JayRolla]

How can I tell the difference between a projected tip and non projected tip?

 

[JeffGST]

How can I tell the difference between a projected tip and non projected tip?

BPR7ES = Projected tip
BR7ES = Non-Projected tip

P = Projected Tip
R = Resistor
7 = Temperature

EDIT: Lean out the fuel curve a bit. That is way too rich for E85 and it could be contributing to your knock conditions. There may be so much Ethanol in the cylinders that it is actually compressing in the cylinders and creating the knock.

 

[JayRolla]

BPR7ES = Projected tip
BR7ES = Non-Projected tip

P = Projected Tip
R = Resistor
7 = Temperature

EDIT: Lean out the fuel curve a bit. That is way too rich for E85 and it could be contributing to your knock conditions. There may be so much Ethanol in the cylinders that it is actually compressing in the cylinders and creating the knock.

Which will cause preignition right?? Im going to lean it out to an 11.5afr and see what happens. Thanks for the info on the plugs, ive been buying projected tip's, what makes the non projected tips better?

 

[Black_Bullet]

JayRolla, good info for your question lies in here under 95GSXracer (Kevins) post

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/tuning-engine-management/247401-difference-between-bp8es-br8es.html


Random additional info on sparkplugs.

Mach V Forums - spark plug question?

Google Image Result for http://images.carcraft.com/techarticles/p133735_image_small.jpg

 

[JayRolla]

Ok so I leaned it out on the way home from work to around a 11.5-11.7 and knock seemed to be around 12 counts at highest. Its confusing though because the knock is not constant. It seems to hit around boost everytime.

First run can show 15 counts, second zero and then the next 4-10 counts. Very inconsistant. Its pretty much acting exactly how my 15psi pump gas tune would and the reason I was going to e85, because I thought the 2g pistons compression was the problem. Starting to think its PK. I have a bad lifter tick that gives me PK at cruising, but usually I can start to get a clean run around 2800rpm by letting go of the throttle and getting back on it real quick. Also I heard that lifter tick does not happen in higher rpms but it is pretty bad tick.

BR7ES plugs ( instead of your current 6ES) make sure there nonprojected.
run a boost leak test
sea foam engine'
do you have heatshields over your exhaust components
cold air intake ( my intake temps dropped a consistent 40degs i also made a splash shield)
make sure your base timing is correct
make sure your knock sensor isnt over torqued. Even better have it loosely on the block.
run a compression test/ leak down ( if your smoking it could affect combustion?)

Too Black Bullit I know the motor is good, freshly built. Boost holds real well on leak test. I have an exhaust mani shield and thats it. Base timing is at 0* at the moment because of the large injectors. The knock sensor is new and on my last head it didnt have PK. I may pull it and reinstall it, but why would I want to loosly install it, wouldnt that cause PK if it wasnt tight?? Compression was over 180 I believe on the last test a month or so back. And the timing shouldnt be too aggressive down low. The log looks good. Im at 0* base and seeing 17* max(1g stock map is 22* at 5* BTDC) so I'm still in the high timing map even with the large injectors because of the airflow Im pushing.

 

[Black_Bullet]

Loosing up the knock sensor will make it less prone to give you phantom knock.
Its already been proven that the mitsu knock sensor is a bit too sensitive to begin with.
If your lifters are ticken bad, then just get the 3rd revision lifters. I have those and they never tick even when the engine is down a qrt. Your knock doesnt sound that bad though, like i said under 10 counts I wouldnt worry about it. You should post a log because how and were the knock occurs could tell a lot and someone may be able to help you clear it up. And I dont think you'll ever have your car dialed in 100% , or extracting the most performance from it unless you had dsmlink or at least a edited eprom chip.
Safc still shows us its limit even with e85 in the tank...

GL

 

[JayRolla]

Yea I'm going to replace the lifters soon. I'm going to try to loosen the knock sensor and see what happens.

Quick question when tuning the low throttle on the WBO2. What percent of throttle should I be at when tuning it and looking at the wbo2 since at different throttle it will change.

 

[Burnett03]

Yea I'm going to replace the lifters soon. I'm going to try to loosen the knock sensor and see what happens.

Quick question when tuning the low throttle on the WBO2. What percent of throttle should I be at when tuning it and looking at the wbo2 since at different throttle it will change.

I have never knocked on e-85. The most i can ever remember was maybe .5 counts.. So i'm confused why you are having such a rough time with it.