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2G My 95' Talon AWD clutch is heavy

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TheDude236

Proven Member
272
193
Mar 15, 2021
Kingston Springs, Tennessee
Finally got my 95' Talon today and boy is it fun! Unfortunately, something is up with the clutch.
What happens is this: The clutch pushes down super hard, and releases waaaaay to close to the floor when shifting, like, almost instantly when you start to release the clutch, it shifts into gear. My dad killed the car the first time he shifted, and instantly said it was probably the master/slave cylinder, but from what I have been reading its some kind of fork near the transmission. I'm ultra confused and just need a master's help on this one. Thanks guys!
 
So to do that, i have to get inside the clutch fork and put a washer behind the pivot ball, correct?
Correct. The pivot ball is 14mm. Is the fork to the left side of the window? Just want to make sure it’s not the picture
 
Not the clutch. The slave into its bore. Did you watch the videos? If you can push in the slave what is the position of the fork now?
 
If you can't push the slave the master cylinder is overadjusted. Please watch the clutch adjustment videos. I posted a very detailed tutorial on the system also. You should not run the car like this. Did yiu purchase a slave cylinder for an awd car? Be very careful if you bought parts store stuff. They frequently have wrong parts concerning awd cars.
 
Ah, that could be my issue. O’Reilys had a slave in stock that “worked for a 1995 Talon TSi” so maybe thats my issue. I’ll check what part it was, although it should have been a Luk unit from what they told me. I’ll also re-adjust the clutch pedal as well and see what happens. My issue will most likely revert to what it was before, but it’ll be easier to diagnose that way i guess.
 
Part store numbers done mean anything. You should verify the bore size. Refer to the documents and videos already posted. For sure you need to back that master off.
 
Just compared the current slave to the old one. Completely identical.
We continued to work on it for a bit longer, even attempting to re-bleed the slave, but only made it worse. Clutch is now softer than it was earlier, and 2nd still grinds bad. 1st is still a bit tough as well. Clutch still engages and disengages way to close to the floor.
Im going to do more diagnosing after work tommorow, but the last thing we havent touched is the clutch fork. Could be broken but we havent gotten a good look. No fluid leaks either btw. A bit pissed that the problem still isnt fixed even after what felt like a rebuild, but I’m guessing this might be a theme with this car, or I’m a bad mechanic. Either is plausible
 
Please please watch the videos and read what is posted. They information should explain how things work, how to check if things are adjusted properly and how to fix things if you can't get it to work. Its a simple system but there are a number of parts that must work together.
Are you now able to push the slave in? If so what is the fork position now? This will tell you quite a bit about what is happening, how to fix it and/or what else may be wrong.
 
First off thanks Paul and everyone here for building such a great community, and helping out my son Ethan (TheDude236). To recap, this all started when we got the car two weeks ago. The clutch didn’t feel right, but seemed to be working until it left us stranded unable to shift at all. We towed it home and you know the rest of the story. We worked on it again today and seem to be at a dead end. We can drive it, but it shifts at the floor, and second gear grinds out. Any guidance is welcomed and appreciated.
- We rewatched all of the Youtube videos
- replaced both master and slave cylinders
- added fresh fluids and bled all lines
- clutch pedal doesn’t engage until it‘s about a 1/2“ from the floor, and then re-engages at the same point (immediately upon release). No ’riding’ this clutch LOL.
- We can push the fork toward the drivers side, but it doesn’t come back until you cycle the clutch pedal a few times.
I grabbed some video of all of these items and hope it helps. Look forward to any feedback!
Richard

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Following this thread because my 1st and 2nd shifts are pretty notchy and I'd like to improve that. The slave seems like there is way too much play and I don't think it's right that it doesn't come back out once pushed in. Here's a crappy video of how mine behaves:
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I also took photos of where my fork sits just for reference:
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Today we will pull the new master cylinder and once again compare it to the old one to ensure the cylinder rod is exactly the same length for throw / travel. Then, we will bench bleed, reinstall, and bleed again to make sure it is completely filled with fluid. I think we may still have air in the line since the slave doesn't recoil as you see in the video. If all of this fails, she goes to the shop :-/
 
Today we will pull the new master cylinder and once again compare it to the old one to ensure the cylinder rod is exactly the same length for throw / travel. Then, we will bench bleed, reinstall, and bleed again to make sure it is completely filled with fluid. I think we may still have air in the line since the slave doesn't recoil as you see in the video. If all of this fails, she goes to the shop :-/

Just so you know what you are shooting for with the clutch adjustment, here is how Mitsubishi explains it in the Factory Service Manual (FSM) for the 2g DSMs. (see screen shot of page 21A-5)

The measurement they label "C" (clutch pedal free play) is really important. You have to have some pedal free play because this is what allows the master piston to retract all the way rearward in the master cylinder. This is what opens the port that connects the reservoir to the master cylinder. As soon as you push the master rod forward 1 or 2 mm, that port is closed off, and you can't have it like that when your foot is off the clutch pedal. This is what the FSM means when it says "Do not push in the master cylinder push rod at this time."

They don't exactly tell you how to measure "C". The way I do it is by watching the master rod with a mirror while I am in the footwell moving the pedal with one hand. I can "eyeball" the 1/4" to 1/2" they are giving for proper "C" on the pedal while watching the master rod to see when it starts to move.

Your video is really good, it shows a lot. The clip from 0:11 to 0:17 is so wrong - where the slave doesn't come back out and you can just wiggle the fork around all over the place.

The slave has a spring in it that pushes the slave rod outward, which you probably noticed when you installed it. It is supposed to be strong enough to pull fluid from the master cylinder and reservoir when you let go of it, provided that the reservoir port is open like it is supposed to be, when you aren't pushing on the pedal at all (pedal all the way up).

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We’re On Boost - thank you. I took your advice and explored the pedal geometry more this afternoon, and took some video for review.
- started by verifying no air in master cylinder by installing a fitting in the top of the master cylinder and creating a circuit Into the reservoir. Only fluid passed into the bowl, no air.
- documented amount of free play BEFORE the master cylinder threaded rod begins to move.
- test drove and same issues exist 1) car begins to move when the clutch is 1/4” off the floor. In other words, immediately -
- also put the car in 1st gear, held the clutch in, and revved to about 6-7k. The car started to roll fwd even with the clutch pedal to the floor which tells me the clutch isn’t fully engaging.
- 2nd gear still grinds while driving also telling me the clutch isn’t engaging / disengaging properly.

Lines are bled, pedal seems to be within spec for range of movement, unless this video shows otherwise. At this point can we safely assume the issues reside within the clutch, pressure plate, flywheel, or throw out bearing?

Richard

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Lines are bled, pedal seems to be within spec for range of movement, unless this video shows otherwise. At this point can we safely assume the issues reside within the clutch, pressure plate, flywheel, or throw out bearing?

Richard

Wow that's a good video.
The whole setup and test from 0:00 to 0:18 looks good to me and with a good result.
So I doubt there is any air in the master.

From 0:24 to 0:27 it does indeed look like the master rod is not moving axially toward the master at all, it is just wiggling around radially. So you've got maybe a quarter of an inch of pedal free play "C" there. That's good. That should be perfect actually.

That shot at 0:19 showing the rod and clevis up close looks reasonable, good, and by counting the threads visible to the right of the lock nut I count about 8 threads visible, which is about 3 less than I see in the photo in post #23 where I can see probably 11 threads showing. That means you now have the master rod about 3 turns farther into the clevis than it was in post 23, if I'm seeing it right. Which probably explains why post #28 says "I cannot push in the slave by hand." Because 3 turns on the master rod, thread pitch of 1.25mm, that's 3 x 1.25 = 3.75mm of rod length, that's more than enough to close up the port that connects master cyl to reservoir.

So there I think you've made it better now than it was on Sunday afternoon, USA time.

But if you had it 8 threads showing when you made the video in post #42 (Monday afternoon), where the slave rod was not really coming back out all by itself after you pushed it in - that is weird. I think the slave rod should have come back out. I'm not so sure about this because I'm a 1g guy, and I've never done any of this on a 2g. But TK's9d2TSi has already said "the slave rod should return" and I think that is right. If it was on my 1g I'd be suspicious that the sping in the slave is not strong enough or that the slave piston is not moving as freely as it should in the cylinder. On the other hand if you had more than 8 threads showing there, it could be that the port was lightly obstructed, just not obstructed enough to prevent you from pushing the slave in.

I'm not so sure now that we have a valid picture of where the fork sits within the fork window. In post #28 it looked too far toward the passenger side, but that is the post where you couldn't push in the slave. In the video in post 42, at 4 seconds, the fork position looks only slightly to the left of center. Not much. I don't know if it is enough to cause your problem. Probably the flywheel was resurfaced as part of the clutch replacement by the previous owner, and that is why the fork is there. Maybe they should have shimmed the pivot ball a little bit to compensate. With a stock or stock-type clutch I don't think it should be that sensitive. But maybe. And we don't know what clutch is in there.

So your driving result right now is that your "D" is too close to the floor. If we say that the pedal is 1" thick and you've got 1/4" of travel off the floor to where it starts engaging, that means you have a "D" of about 1.25". Which for sure is way not enough. FSM says 2.76" or more.

In the video in post 47, I can't get a very accurate idea of how far the master rod is moving when you push the pedal to the floor. How much stroke you are getting on that rod. I think it should be about an inch, maybe a little more. Somebody should have a number for that. Anyway I'm suspicious that the master rod stroke isn't as much as it could be.

So, where there is potential to increase the master rod travel is by checking the "A" measurement and increasing it if you can. That is how high the pedal gets when it's all the way up. The FSM page 21A-5 says 7.0 to 7.1 inches and tells how to adjust it. What some of us 1g guys do to maximize this is we remove that "bolt" or "clutch pedal switch" entirely.

If you can adjust this, you'll get more total pedal travel. If you do this you'll have to re-adjust the master rod to get the correct pedal free play back ("C"), because the pedal will come out more. If it is a switch there and you remove it, I guess then the cruise control is disabled.

If these things don't solve it, then I guess the problem is going to be something inside the bell housing! Or there might be the possibility that the shaft that the whole pedal pivots on might be lurching around a little too loose in whatever bearings it turns in, which would waste some of the pedal motion. We have that on the 1g's. Don't know if the 2g's have that problem or not!
 
Thanks for the investment of time. I have a receipt from the previous owner showing the that clutch was replaced in May of 2019, and that as part of the service the flywheel was resurfaced. You are correct, we don't know what clutch was used, maybe I can call that shop. Also not sure if they shimmed the pivot ball. The pedal doesn't have any lateral play, or slop. I've heard this can be an issue with 1G, but not as prevalent in 2G. Ours seems fine. I didn't use OEM master or slave, and wonder if that could be an issue. I've heard the internals can be different even if the exterior looks identical. I've also see some guys replace the unit that is in between the master and slave with a braided stainless line. Not sure what it's called, an accumulator maybe? Anyway, I wonder if ours has gone bad? Maybe it isn't allowing good flow between the master and slave preventing the slave from springing back. Is that a possibility?
 
I don't know what it looks like on the inside, but that accumulator in the clutch line is just a restriction to slow clutch release. I've never really thought about it, but I wonder if it could be clogged? You certainly wouldn't see any downsides to removing it.
 
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