Methanol kit - how valuable is a progressive controller?

[soldave]

Am possibly looking at a methanol kit in the future and have my eyes on a couple of relatively budget options:

Water Injection - Alcohol & Methanol - Stop Knock - 150 PSI Pressure Switch Stage 1 Kit (1-30 PSI of Boost) (Powered by CubeCart)

Injection Kit

My buddy said these kits look OK, but that a progressive controller would make tuning a hell of a lot easier, as the meth isn't dumped in all at once when you start which could bog it down some. Wondered what you guys thought of these as budget kits and how valuable the progressive controller is (as it would add quite a bit of cost onto it, and I'm not made of money).

Thanks in advance for any advice

 

[turboglenn]

I don't use the progressive controller and i run a 660ml/min noxxle that come on at 9psi. I know a few other people running the same base kit as me with no bogging issues what so ever.

BUT, if you were running a LOT of meth (like 2 big nozzles of M10 size or bigger) then i could see the progressive kit helping out a lot. But there's a guy on here ( forget his screen name) that i've talked to a few times over PM and he's running a 14 and 10 nozzle without the controller.

So, i guess i'm saying, you'll be fine wihtout it, but i'm sure it has it's plus side in helping with even delivery

 

[soldave]

Well I think I'd be running a single M5 nozzle, so not so big. Am currently hitting around 300-310WHP according to my rev/speed meter and hopefully with the meth my boost can go up and my power figures with it.

Next couple of questions when it comes to these 2 budget kits I've picked out. The first kit I picked out has a stage 1 and stage 2 kit. The stage 2 kit comes with the following:

A filter is now included to ensure that tiny bits of debris do not clog your injector. An inline Pressure Detector is also included which serves a dual purpose. It is placed between the Check Valve Injector Mount and the Pump, and when the injector is pressurized, it triggers a switch which illuminates a light in the cockpit so you know everything is working correctly. The same sensor also serves as a clogged nozzle detector. When you let off the gas, your water injection kit will immediately switch off as well as the light in the cabin. If your nozzle is clogged, the pressure will remain in the system between the solenoid and the injector, causing the light in the cockpit to stay illuminated. The pressure detector is rated at a pressure of 250 psi.

Would something like that be worth an extra $50? And finally, the 2nd kit I pointed out had a 120-140psi pump. Would that be ok for the power I'm making, or would I be wanting to get the 150psi pump?

 

[turboglenn]

The added safety of knowing if something's wrong would be nice. But periodic maintenance and keeping the relay that triggers it in the cabin so you can hear the system turn on and off works for me.

The nozzles in the devils own kit have their own little filters in them. The only time mine got any debris in it was when i ran washer fluid for the first tank of meth testing. Since then i've mixed my own from HEET and Distilled water, it's about the same cost in the long run, but with the benefit of knowing the mix and knowing there's no dye in it to stick to the filter screen and start corroding (that happened to me after 1 gallon of washer fluid, i wont' use it again unless it's all i can get)

You may start with aan M7 nozzle, but once you start reaping the benefits you'll be upgrading fast. I went from the M7 at 17-18psi to the M10 now running at 22-24psi and it's about maxed out. I'm waiting on a new wastegate spring so i can pull more boost using my EBC instead of going manual. Then i plan on adding a second nozzle size M7 down stream towards the BOV and keeping the 10 at the TB elbow.

The stuff is awesome, the other night for some reason i was seeing knock on my in dash knock monitor at 22 psi. I let out thinking something was wrong.... Looked in the trunk and the meth tank was empty (first time that's happened) Refilled it and all the knock is gone again!

 

[matthewdesigns]

^^^ Is that still on meth only, no IC?

 

[turboglenn]

No, i haven't started the no IC testing yet. I just picked up some used IC pipes that I'm going to mount 2 nozzles in and run from the turbo to the intake bypassing the FMIC. I probably won't get to that test for a while yet, as I'm still playing with different mixes of meth and water and working out a few other bugs as well (namely new valve springs)

I should add that the figures stated above are on a timing curve that starts and stays at 18* BTDC all through the power band instead of the factory mitsu ECU only giving you 18 right before redline and most of the time starting at 12* when you lay into it.

 

[soldave]

You may start with aan M7 nozzle, but once you start reaping the benefits you'll be upgrading fast. I went from the M7 at 17-18psi to the M10 now running at 22-24psi and it's about maxed out. I'm waiting on a new wastegate spring so i can pull more boost using my EBC instead of going manual. Then i plan on adding a second nozzle size M7 down stream towards the BOV and keeping the 10 at the TB elbow.

An M7 nozzle - that big? I had used the calculations on enginerunup.com and thought I'd be using an M5 nozzle. As I said, would hope to be hitting around 350WHP later in the year, and will hopefully get my boost up to 1.3-1.45 bar depending on knock (the main reason I'm going for the meth).

 

[turboglenn]

I had the 7 in when i made the 332 that's in my profile. That was on pump gas and meth at roughly 20psi. My EBC was acting up and i could barely hold 20 on the dyno. But I honestly don't think he was loading my car down enough, because on the street I can get 23-24psi without changing anything, but couldn't pass 20 on the dyno

Your nozzle should be roughly the size of one of your injectors, so since i run 720's, the M10 nozzle putts out 660cc/min (or mil/min, they are the same). But that's for a water meth mix. If you want to run pure meth you need aprox 30-35% of total fuel flow in meth, so you need more than the size of an injector for that.

 

[soldave]

I'll be running a 50/50 mix I think. With 560cc injectors the M5 might be about right for me.

 

[turboglenn]

An M5 ius only 315ml/min (same as cc/min) You want something that will at least flow the same as one of your injectors at 80% duty cycle, so that puts you needing about 500cc/min. And M7 does 441ml/min so that would work, but you would gain more boost and timing just going to the 10 nozzle and running about 70/30 mix (70% being meth).

I've been experimenting with this since i got it, and it's pretty much the more the better as long as the mix is right. Washer fluid is junk IMO, get some distilled water and methanol ( HEET at walmart) and mix your own at 70/30, or whatever mix you want to try, but that's what's worked best for me. I have an aftermarket knock sensor and on the same tune, if the meth runs out ill get 5* being pulled on a 20psi pull. Refilled the meth, no more knock and i increased the timing a bit more. It seems that if you run enough of either water or meth or a mix, you can achieve almost race gas results.

The water alone if in the right amount to make it into the comustion chamber not completely steamed out can slow the burn of pump gas to similar rates as 110 octane... read the DSM WiKi on alcohol injection. dsm-onster wrote a great page on water and meth usage!!!!!

EDIT: here's the link to the WiKi article
WaterInjection - Dsmwiki

EDIT # 2: it seems the article has had a lot of the nfo in it removed and replaced with info about teh components, but thre's still come good info once you get past the 3 or so paragraphs of scientific heat transfer results

 

[420a-t]

Go at least an m7, if not bigger. Once you get it down, you'll want more. I ran an m5 nozzle at the start of last year, then upgraded to an m7, and this year I'm going with a m14 nozzle.

Do you have a way of adding or subtracting fuel? If so, tuning is a breeze after a few passes.

Btw, I want to see some pix of your car.

 

[soldave]

Thanks for all the info. Well, it looks like an M7 injector is going to be the one for me then. The next one up would be the M11 from enginerunup.com and that seems like it might be a bit too much.And thanks for the info on the DSMwiki - some good stuff on there.

I do have a really old skool 5-knob SAFC for tuning at the moment, but am waiting on delivery of an Ostrich real-time emulator which I'll be using with the Tunerpro RT software for tuning. Will have to get used to using the system, but it should make things a lot more configurable for me. As for pics of my car, a few are up on my gallery page in here.

 

[turboglenn]

Start with the 7, but honestly buy a few nozzles get yourself the 11 and maybe one bigger. Meth injection is like crack for your engine, once it's had a taste it keeps wanting more :: So make sure to get some extras to play with.

Love that car by the way.

 

[soldave]

Will probably do that then. Will a 120-140 psi pump be that much of a loss, compared to a 150psi one?

 

[turboglenn]

If it's the normal pump that's in most kits like the devils own you can actually change the pressure. I think it's a Shur-Flo unit, but there's an allen wrench in the cap for the pressure switch and all you have to do is turn it counter clockwise to increase pressure.

Honestly i don't think there'll be a noticeable difference in those pressures though.
I would look at devils own's website DevilsOwn alcohol water injection- methanol his pumps come at 150 and can be turned up to 200 and more from what i undersand, but leave it at 150 and change nozzles to get teh performance you want. it's more reliable that way because higher pressures than 150-175 can start to stress the lines in some kits (or at least that's what they warn of in the instructions) Hopefully this was some help for you

 

[soldave]

Well, I have ordered a Stage 2 progressive meth kit from Devils Own. Ordered it on Saturday and hopefully will get it in the near future. It ships with the M3, M7 and M12 nozzles. Will probably fit the M7 in first and go from there.

How will I know if that nozzle is too small for my needs?

 

[turboglenn]

It will be too small if you're using "respectable but decent" timing numbers and still seeing knock if tuned to 11:1 no matter what boost (roughly). Everytime i cranked the boost further while choosing my jet, when i saw knock, i checked the tune and if it was safe i upgraded meth nozzles and all knock was gone again, then turn the boost up some more (see the visious cycle yet?)

I was running an M10 on 24psi, and the 7 took me to about 20.

We are tuning my friends 16g car (the one in my new pre - turbo test) on an M7 nozzle with an M2 pre-turbo .. it would hold a steady 20psi on the 7 all day with very little to no knock. Now with the extra M2 we've been hitting 24psi with very little to no knock... As long as it's notso big that you feel the motor bog, i think you're fine.

 

[soldave]

Well, people have recommended the M7 or M10 for me. Am just wondering if the M12 might be a little too big. Only one way to find out though...

 

[blcknspo0ln]

Hey glenn, what do you think about running a dual nozzle setup with my turbo setup? I was thinking the M10 and the M7 in order to run 30 psi.

 

[turboglenn]

Hey glenn, what do you think about running a dual nozzle setup with my turbo setup? I was thinking the M10 and the M7 in order to run 30 psi.

That should be good if you're running a 50/50 mix or even 75/25 (heavy on meth), but if you're running pure meth i would probably go M10 AND M12 on a dual nozzle setup @ 30psi.

An m10 took me good to 20psi and an M10 + M5 seemed to be good to 24-25'ish on pump gas, and that was on a 75/25 blend. meth starts to run out fast at these nozzle sizes, but a small price to pay for reliable 25+psi performance on pump fuel.

I have to say i'm very thanfull to this forum for bringing the goodness of meth injection to light in my world. Had it not beed for members here i would have still looked at meth/water injection as a small crutch and not the great detonation reducer that it is, and probably never would have come to take full advantage of it.

If it wasnt' for the cost of E85 i would still be enjoying the thrills of adding meth on top of pump to make a mix that's damn near as good as leaded race fuel (save for the volatile base component of pump gas)

please update us as to the performance gains you see with this setup!!!!!!!!!

 

[soldave]

Hey glenn, what do you think about running a dual nozzle setup with my turbo setup? I was thinking the M10 and the M7 in order to run 30 psi.

What is your turbo setup?

 

[blcknspo0ln]

please update us as to the performance gains you see with this setup!!!!!!!!!

Will do, thanks for the advice. I was also thinking that the nozzle sizes may be too small, Perhaps we will see.

What is your turbo setup?

Most of my mods are in my profile, but it's your basic 50 trim kit.

 

[soldave]

My DevilsOwn kit came in today, and a very nice kit is it too. Only problem is that they have only sent me the M3 and M7 nozzles (and not the M12 as it says on their website) but hopefully that will be sent to me soon. Any chance people could take pics of their install (trunk and engine bay) so I can see how it's all laid out? The instructions are the greatest and I'm a pretty visual person when it comes to stuff like this.

 

[Devilsown]

Dave we sent you a DO3 and DO7 nozzle. The newer nozzles cost twice what the older M nozzles cost this is why we went from 3 to 2. I also did send you out a m12 nozzle so you will be able to see both styles.