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2G Mechanical Timing

98gstJames

Proven Member
78
15
May 25, 2022
Virginia
So I’ve done a lot of work on my car and it’s almost starting, I got it to turn over one time and now it’s just crank, I know it’s my timing because I lined up the gears and they didn’t line up right, it wasn’t off by a lot but I know the slightest miss in the timing won’t allow it to fire, so I’m basically just wondering honestly how to do it, I’m familiar with the system and have the Haynes manual but it’s not really too much in detail about basically how to start the timing process, so I was hoping someone could walk me through the process. Thank you
 

pauleyman

DSM Wiseman
8,124
2,690
Nov 19, 2011
oklahoma city, Oklahoma
Lets start with was it running and you were just doing maintenance? Or is this a repair because of a broken belt? Has it ever ran? If your timing is off do NOT crank it anymore. All mechanical timing is relative to the crank. If the crank is on it's marks then everything else should be also.
We can elaborate further after you answer questions.
 

98gstJames

Proven Member
78
15
May 25, 2022
Virginia
Lets start with was it running and you were just doing maintenance? Or is this a repair because of a broken belt? Has it ever ran? If your timing is off do NOT crank it anymore. All mechanical timing is relative to the crank. If the crank is on it's marks then everything else should be also.
We can elaborate further after you answer questions.
The car does run, but it’s not starting like 98% of the time and when it does start it doesn’t act like it’s running where it should be. The belt wasn’t broken or anything I’m just trying to get the car to start without having to hold the ignition over and pump the gas a million times for it to catch. The engine is fine inside as I just did some internal work but it still started the same way and spins freely so im not sure what the problem is, my timing marks don’t line up exactly right on the cams and I haven’t been able to get a good look at how it lines up for the crank but just looking at the cams it looked a little off.
 

pauleyman

DSM Wiseman
8,124
2,690
Nov 19, 2011
oklahoma city, Oklahoma
The car does run, but it’s not starting like 98% of the time and when it does start it doesn’t act like it’s running where it should be. The belt wasn’t broken or anything I’m just trying to get the car to start without having to hold the ignition over and pump the gas a million times for it to catch. The engine is fine inside as I just did some internal work but it still started the same way and spins freely so im not sure what the problem is, my timing marks don’t line up exactly right on the cams and I haven’t been able to get a good look at how it lines up for the crank but just looking at the cams it looked a little off.
It's not possible to line up cams and not the crank. You MUST line up crank THEN cams. Doesn't matter if cam line is good if the belt were 4 or 5 teeth off at the crank. See what I mean? I'm not sure what you're doing but you should have the entire timing cover off, rotate the motor over by hand to line up the crank and then look at cams. Show us this. I would not go any further without doing this.
 

98gstJames

Proven Member
78
15
May 25, 2022
Virginia
It's not possible to line up cams and not the crank. You MUST line up crank THEN cams. Doesn't matter if cam line is good if the belt were 4 or 5 teeth off at the crank. See what I mean? I'm not sure what you're doing but you should have the entire timing cover off, rotate the motor over by hand to line up the crank and then look at cams. Show us this. I would not go any further without doing this.
I’ve re-looked underneath and at the cams and I can’t see the crank pulley but I can see the balance shaft pulley to the left of the crank pulley, that pulley and the cam pulleys do line up correctly and I took photos to show, I also have a video of what it sounds like when I start ithttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vItl2U6dJo4

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Mello

Proven Member
1,444
597
Jul 4, 2003
Albuquerque, New_Mexico
I can see the balance shaft pulley to the left of the crank pulley, that pulley and the cam pulleys do line up correctly
How can the balance shaft line up? There's no balance shaft belt. You will have to take the harmonic balancer off and get access to the crank pulley before you will know anything. I recommend you stop doing anything & start reading up on the timing belt mechanical timing.
 

pauleyman

DSM Wiseman
8,124
2,690
Nov 19, 2011
oklahoma city, Oklahoma
Sorry but I'm going to be blunt. NONE of what you are seeing matters. You MUST have the crank lined up. Take off the harmonic balancer and see. It is not the center bolt, It's the 4 outer bolts.
I'm going to ask again, has it ever run 100% correctly in your possession? If the answer is no I'm going to question whether or not you have something more wrong. You won't know until you get this part right and then see what happens. If it doesn't run well with correctly timed belt I wouldn't run it any more without investigation.
 

CKOPOCT

Proven Member
90
50
May 27, 2017
North East, Maryland
What you are describing could be the timing belt being a tooth off. Let's hope this didn't result in bent valves. Regardless, recommend following the advice and timing procedures ID'd by luv2rallye and pauleyman.

In addition, in looking at the pic you posted I think I see a host of aftermarket bolt-ons - wires, tube headers, radiator, bov maybe... Post your lost of mods and such in your profile. Running problems can come from mods as well, so having the profile can help us help you should other issues arise.
 

98gstJames

Proven Member
78
15
May 25, 2022
Virginia
What you are describing could be the timing belt being a tooth off. Let's hope this didn't result in bent valves. Regardless, recommend following the advice and timing procedures ID'd by luv2rallye and pauleyman.

In addition, in looking at the pic you posted I think I see a host of aftermarket bolt-ons - wires, tube headers, radiator, bov maybe... Post your lost of mods and such in your profile. Running problems can come from mods as well, so having the profile can help us help you should other issues arise.
It does have some mods on like it was switched from a 7 bolt to a six bolt, it has headers on it, intake piping, maf delete, 02 delete and few other things but those are the main engine mods. The car ran and drove in my possession and if I do get it to start i can normally keep it running for a few minutes then it wants to die down, i didn’t want to try and run the car and wanted to investigate and found a leaky injector, the gas was old, and the piston rod bearings and main bearings needed addressed, so I went through and did all of the things needed to be done, it also had some wiring issues to the starter and I got that taken care of, and I’ve gotten it to start since then but it just does not want to start literally almost all the time, that was even before I did anything so I know the issue wasn’t me, it acts the exact same when starting as it did when I first got it, I have to pump the gas a bunch then it’ll start after about 20 seconds of pumping and I can only get it to start once, but since I’ve done the work I’ve only tried once and got it to run once and haven’t since because I’ve just been busy but I’m just confused what my issue could be I feel like I’ve literally done everything and feel like I have everything and my car should start right up but it doesn’t. To get the car to start I’ve fixed wiring issues, fixed a leaky injector, put fresh gas In it ,new spark plugs, checked for spark which I have on all four cylinders, put a new battery and starter and still almost the same results, I have a better crank speed but still no catch.
 

dwb

Proven Member
193
76
Sep 9, 2021
Broomfield, Colorado
There's a whole lot here that isn't right. Where's the t-belt covers? Why is the BS belt missing? Did they put a stub shaft in behind the oil pump after the (improper) BS belt delete?
Your video, while it didn't link properly, sounds like its got compression so that's a good sign valves are not bent, but I'd stop trying to crank it until you have 100% confirmed the timing belt aligned is right. I think you need to completely re-do the timing belt from start to finish and address the BS belt in the process.
 

98gstJames

Proven Member
78
15
May 25, 2022
Virginia
There's a whole lot here that isn't right. Where's the t-belt covers? Why is the BS belt missing? Did they put a stub shaft in behind the oil pump after the (improper) BS belt delete?
Your video, while it didn't link properly, sounds like its got compression so that's a good sign valves are not bent, but I'd stop trying to crank it until you have 100% confirmed the timing belt aligned is right. I think you need to completely re-do the timing belt from start to finish and address the BS belt in the process.
Alright I’ve taken the harmonic balancer off and I took pics of the pulleys and this is how they look with the cams lined up and the dowel points pointed up

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Tell me about this MAF delete. Is the car on speed density running a map and iat sensor? Does the car have an ecmlink ecu for tuning?
Tbh I have no clue if it has any kind of change for the maf it definitely doesn’t have an ecu for it tho, it’s the stock one I think he literally pulled it off but I have no way to tell, when the car is running it just doesn’t have full throttle response like it’s almost laggy in the injectors like sometimes it sputtered and then catch after a couple seconds of holding the gas but when it went it kept up its just when you let off the gas and hit it again, so I’m not totally sure about all of it.
 

Vegas Smith

Proven Member
4,885
2,740
Dec 2, 2002
Houston, Texas
Holy shit your car just flat-out doesn't have a MAF sensor or way to register airflow. That's bad. You need to put a working maf on the car. That's likely your problem if you're not on speed density.
 
Last edited:

pauleyman

DSM Wiseman
8,124
2,690
Nov 19, 2011
oklahoma city, Oklahoma
Alright I’ve taken the harmonic balancer off and I took pics of the pulleys and this is how they look with the cams lined up and the dowel points pointed up

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You are clearly off. As I said before you line up crank THEN cams. Your mechanical timing is severely off.
 
Last edited:

98gstJames

Proven Member
78
15
May 25, 2022
Virginia
Alright, I spent a little time last night getting the belt off the lower end and got it all lined up today and still no results. I’m seriously so lost at this point, maybe I didn’t line it up right but I’m pretty sure I did, all the marks line up with everything and still nothing. I’ll add a pic of the lineup and a video of me attempting to start it.
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Holy shit your car just flat-out doesn't have a MAF sensor or way to register airflow. That's bad. You need to put a working maf on the car. That's likely your problem if you're not on speed density.
That’s what I said when I looked under the hood. I have two maf sensors I just don’t have the bracket to put it on, are you saying that’s my problem for the lag or no start? I’m getting the parts to get it on I just wasn’t sure if that was affecting my starting or not.
 

pauleyman

DSM Wiseman
8,124
2,690
Nov 19, 2011
oklahoma city, Oklahoma
That’s what I said when I looked under the hood. I have two maf sensors I just don’t have the bracket to put it on, are you saying that’s my problem for the lag or no start? I’m getting the parts to get it on I just wasn’t sure if that was affecting my starting or not.
You need to replace the maf. At this point I would run a compression and leak down test. Did this car run well? I don't see how.
Please give us an entire rundown of what you know. Maf delete and o2 delete don't make sense. Those are not things you delete. Can you clarify. You also mentioned maf has no ecu. What does that mean?

It does have some mods on like it was switched from a 7 bolt to a six bolt, it has headers on it, intake piping, maf delete, 02 delete and few other things but those are the main engine mods. The car ran and drove in my possession and if I do get it to start i can normally keep it running for a few minutes then it wants to die down, i didn’t want to try and run the car and wanted to investigate and found a leaky injector, the gas was old, and the piston rod bearings and main bearings needed addressed, so I went through and did all of the things needed to be done, it also had some wiring issues to the starter and I got that taken care of, and I’ve gotten it to start since then but it just does not want to start literally almost all the time, that was even before I did anything so I know the issue wasn’t me, it acts the exact same when starting as it did when I first got it, I have to pump the gas a bunch then it’ll start after about 20 seconds of pumping and I can only get it to start once, but since I’ve done the work I’ve only tried once and got it to run once and haven’t since because I’ve just been busy but I’m just confused what my issue could be I feel like I’ve literally done everything and feel like I have everything and my car should start right up but it doesn’t. To get the car to start I’ve fixed wiring issues, fixed a leaky injector, put fresh gas In it ,new spark plugs, checked for spark which I have on all four cylinders, put a new battery and starter and still almost the same results, I have a better crank speed but still no catch.
This car is not a 6 bolt. Assume nothing about what you were told.
 

98gstJames

Proven Member
78
15
May 25, 2022
Virginia
You need to replace the maf. At this point I would run a compression and leak down test. Did this car run well? I don't see how.
Please give us an entire rundown of what you know. Maf delete and o2 delete don't make sense. Those are not things you delete. Can you clarify. You also mentioned maf has no ecu. What does that mean?
Alright so I got the car, it started then but it needed the clutch bled as the guy just swapped the stock one for a stage 2 clutch so I couldn’t drive it to see how it drove, I got it home and bled the clutch then took it for a test drive, it would start after pumping the gas a million times it felt like and in quick succession, so I got it to the shop and started inspecting it, the power wire for the positive battery terminal was about half burnt(he moved the battery from the front to the back) so I rewired all the wires for the battery, I put a new starter on it because the one on it took a crap. There is no maf sensor and it has the stock ecu, the plug for the maf is just hanging and the 02 sensor coming off the exhaust is taken out as well but the one halfway down the exhaust is still there, the ps pump has been taken off, it has aftermarket spark plug wires and headers, some very cheap manual boost controller which I’m positive doesn’t even work, hks blowoff valve, and that’s all I can think of at the moment.

This car is not a 6 bolt. Assume nothing about what you were told.
How do you tell the difference and how can you tell mine is not a 6 bolt?
 
Last edited:

DSMPT

DSM Wiseman
2,041
1,603
Jun 12, 2014
Japan / Mexico, Arizona
How do you tell the difference and how can you tell mine is not a 6 bolt?
The pic you uploaded tells everything...
Front case, oil filter housing, oil pan, tensioner, crank plate, CPS, etc. All of those parts are for 7 bolt block, which means you have a 7 bolt block. If you had a 6 bolt block, those parts would look totally different and the TDC position mark would be at 2 o'clock.
 

98gstJames

Proven Member
78
15
May 25, 2022
Virginia
The pic you uploaded tells everything...
Front case, oil filter housing, oil pan, tensioner, crank plate, CPS, etc. All of those parts are for 7 bolt block, which means you have a 7 bolt block. If you had a 6 bolt block, those parts would look totally different and the TDC position mark would be at 2 o'clock.
Ahhh okay that makes sense… I wasn’t sure.
 

steve

DSM Wiseman
14,575
1,468
Feb 3, 2002
Boulder, Colorado
From here is looks like you have the mechanical timing right.

You are missing the upper balance shaft belt. I assume you have deleted them so you don't have to worry about the phasing of the lower balance shaft in the mechanical timing.

If you haven't you'll need to start over so you can put that belt on first, then make sure the oil pump sprocket is in the correct phase before putting the main timing belt back on.
 

pauleyman

DSM Wiseman
8,124
2,690
Nov 19, 2011
oklahoma city, Oklahoma
I agree the timing marks are on but equally important is the tensioner protrusion. This has to be right or you risk the belt jumping time. If your tensioner arm has a divot in it grind it flat.
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