Let's talk 4G63 Turbo Oil Feed / Supply Locations- ALL TURBO BRANDS

[JusMX141]

^ There are lots of variables that must be assumed when choosing the head as your oil source. Has the head itself ever been milled/machined? If so, the volume and pressure reaching the head will be lower unless you've done the http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/newbie-forum/341028-4g63t-head-oil-port-mod.html.

This is why I think may builders just recommend the filter housing then use a restrictor if needed because the numbers are more consistent with less variables like head machining, lack of oil squirters, etc. Ask FP and see what they recommend because they're the ones honoring the warranty should it fail.

 

[schumy]

^ There are lots of variables that must be assumed when choosing the head as your oil source. Has the head itself ever been milled/machined? If so, the volume and pressure reaching the head will be lower unless you've done the http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/newbie-forum/341028-4g63t-head-oil-port-mod.html.

This is why I think may builders just recommend the filter housing then use a restrictor if needed because the numbers are more consistent with less variables like head machining, lack of oil squirters, etc. Ask FP and see what they recommend because they're the ones honoring the warranty should it fail.

That's a good point I'm still a couple months away from actually buying it so I will definitely ask them for there feedback

 

[Kurptk]

Upgraded thrust hardware requires a filter housing feed due to the additional oiling hole in the plate which acts as a parasitic drain to the available pressure in the cartridge. A head source may only give you 30psi under full-throttle acceleration; some have reported as little as 25-27psi as their max. Add another oiling hole to bleed pressure off and those numbers can drop to fatal levels. Basically, the head source is chosen with an unmodified OEM turbo in mind...if you change something within the the turbo, you must change the oil supply to support the change. This may mean adding a restrictor if necessary to keep the pressure entering the turbo at a safe level.

The person who built the turbo for you should have explained this fully before selling the turbo to you or they should be responsible for repairing the unit. If it was explained and made clear but you chose to ignore what you were told, then it's on you.

Thank you Justin for that reply. If only the guy who built/sold me that turbo was half as helpful. Never once did he mention anything about feeding the turbo from a different source, (I even went back and checked all our conversations) or any specs to what it required oil wise at any point even after I asked if there was anything else I needed. I didn't buy all brand OEM mounting hardware, gaskets ect, wait nearly 2 months for him to ship just to cheap out on a $30 oil line. Huge piss off. Anyway's Turbo is completely shot, turbine and all

After I emailed him telling him that, his reply was its toast and need a rebuild and it was essentially my fault for not reading his add (In which there was never a add, he contacted me through my WTB add)

So now I am stuck starting from scratch, not that big a deal since I will at least learn to build these turbo's from scratch, but makes you realize how big of scam artists some people are in this community

Sorry for rambling on just very frustrating, but I thank you for all your help! I just wanted to clarify the different requirements for these thrust bearings

 

[JusMX141]

Right-on. I suppose that's what we're dealt when a vendor isn't educated on the product they're selling, which is why my original intent when creating this thread four years ago was to educate everyone; myself included.

 

[turboglenn]

i'm not trying to take sides on the oiling or failure aspect of this but, as in the rant vinney ten made a short time ago it brings me o have to ask.. Did you ask the seller where he would recomend oiling the turbo from in the first place? Also, were you informed of the upgrqded thrust upon purchase of the turbo? i'm just trying to better understand or figure out if anyone person can be said to be in the wrong on this one. The buyer/car owners have as much responsibility to do their homework as the seller or shop does have to be held responsible for the quality of their builds.

I ran a garrett t3/t4 57 trim oiled from the head for almost 10 years with a 260* upgrade3d thrust being pushed to 38-30 psi for the last couple of it's years and never really below 18-19ish the entire time it was on and there was no issues what so ever on it , in fact the compressor wheel was shot from errosion from filter failures and the like before i took it off and rebuilt it only to find the bearings in perfect shape. This was on 3 different engines, 1 and a half with balance shafts and 1 and a half without (took b shafts out of 2nd engine halfway through it's life in the car.)

and the heads on the second two engeines were milled with no oil port mod since it was something i was unaware of at the time of the builds. I've also known many others to run many turbos from the head with no issues, but the ONE turbo I have seen fail from the head repeatedly are the holsets since getting into them and studying their behaviour.

Again i'm not taking sides on anything but i personally think there's another underlying issue at hand here, I would like to reffer back to the thrust collar and it being hard to get on and off, this is something i've seen before and usually because it's deformed or the turbine shaft is bent, in this case it would have been the rebuilders faulty work to blame, I check run out on the turbine shafts with them jigged in v-blocks and using a dial indicator that reads to .0005" and if it's not in spec of the manufacturer i won't consider it for use, the thrust colar should have been new in the rebuild and i've also seen those come in off brand rebuild kits where they aren't sized properly and are tough to move even on a good shaft, so this could have also been the failure point even though a good oil film should hav prevented damage that soon.

one thing i have to say that i find vital to the life of turbos is synthetic oils, I use them religeousely and never have coking, wear or heat discoloration to dfeal with when servicing the turbo. Now on dyno oils, i've seen many many failures where people just don't take the proper precautions when changing the oil at correct intervals or letting the turbo cool after a hard pull before shutting the engine down.

all in all i can't say one way or another who was at fault and without the turbo in hand i think it's about impossible for nyone to do so.. and when it comes to the iling spot, i think it's a little less vital than is often hyped up to be except situations where a manufacturer calls for a minimum PSI under load that exceeds what the head can produce.

I had a turbo come back to me this past summer after only 7 minutes of use for warranty rebuild as it had locked up tight, the customer did all he could on install (almost) to ensure it was done right and yet it locke up on the first outing, ell when i got it there was clear indication that although the oil line had been hooked up there was something clogging it as there were no traces of oil inside the CHRA, was this the customer's fault, not really but kinda, was this my fault, no, but there's more i could have said, but the info i could have said and what he could have done is information that any tubro install guide will tell you to do..... this was to check oil return flow before running the car, the one thing i do anytime ii've unhooked the oil supply to a turbo for work on a car i ALWAYS unhook the drain as well and start the car and check that there's flow in adequate amounts from the drain hole at idle before the car is driven.

all in all, what i'm getting at is that there's a responsibility by both parties to either share certain "to do's" and "not to do's" when selling a product just as much as their is the responsibility of the buyer to research the upgrade, ask questions or seek the help of others well before jumping into the upgrading of ANY oart on a high performance car. a few extra minutes on one persons behalf will save time and money for both parties in the end... so before blaming the vendor, you also must assess the buyer and what homework ws done on his behalf before installing the part that failed.

like i often tell people on here when i'm asked to give them a recomendation on how to set something up, and that's the fact that before i do anything on my car, i google, search this forum and others aboyut the mod, it's problmes and benfits before starting in on the project..before i got the news about my health back opn august 8th i can say with 100% truth that i spent at least 2 hours (mopst times 4) per night reading up on things about cars/mods/failures and fixes on anything i'm interested in ... I didn't just wake up one day with the knowledge i have about turbos, cars and tuning or fabbing , it was accumulated from many many hours ofd reading, asking questions and some of it even trial and error, but mostly from doing my homework to ensure that the money i spent was well spent and wouldn't be spent twice before i dd "X" modification

It's easy to blame a vendor or buyer or anyone party to feel better about one person and hate on the other when in fact there's equal responsibilty on both parties behalfs to make sure things are in proper order before proceeding with modifying anything from a car, motorcycle or even R/C car.

I also think any buyer who plays the roll of "I EXPECTED TO JUST BE ABLE TO BOLT THIS ON AND GO" shows the fact that this person (and i'm not pointing at this post in general, just speaking in general terms) but this person probably shouldnb't have been modding the car at this level without understanding what was being done or what chances there were going into it. when this is the case, the customer should buck up about thir skill qnd comfort level and either seek the help of a friend with the knowledge or have a shop with a good reputation for doing good worki in general to have installed the part

 

[coltboostin]

To add fuel to this fire-

Did some testing today before work using an mechanical Autometer Gauge

HEAD-using stock Banjo, stock line-35 PSI cold start idle. 11psi HOT oil idle (Idle @1050) 40psi @5krpm HOT

OFH-with an unrestricted -3, 38 psi IDLE, 95psi @5k HOT
OFH with a 1/16th restriction-35 psi idle and 90psi@ 5k HOT

This is with a used stock oil pump, and an unported bypass. Food for thought

 

[Marceldsm]

Ok i have a pte 6152 mithu housing
no balance shafts, were DO i feed it from ?

The head

or filter housing i have the same extreme psi feed line kit do i use a restrictor or not ????

IM READING AND READING AND IM GEATING MORE AND MORE CONFUSED

 

[JusMX141]

Filter housing- use a restrictor if necessary to get your peak pressure number down to around 70psi at wide-open throttle. Don't over-restrict or you'll put the turbo at risk....and be sure your oil drain is large enough and has no kinks.

 

[coltboostin]

After Much research and talking to the only guy at PTE that knows anything-I am feeding my 6262 fromt he housing, with an UNRESTRICTED 4an. I ported the housign- and my peak pressure is never north of 80psi, even at cold start (20psi at idle)

No smoke, no issues-and it has been at 30 psi since day one. ZERo, and I mean ZERO shaft play thus far. They recommend -4 unrestricted due to the VOLUME they want in the housing-you have to remember restricting the line will in turn severely restrict the volume. IMO, I would avoid restriction if you can unless yo are running a BB center.

Over the years I have used -3, restricted -4, and I have seen the best results with PTE turbos with what I am ruining now.

 

[JusMX141]

I ported the housign- and my peak pressure is never north of 80psi, even at cold start (20psi at idle)

There's the key to success. If your pressure is within spec, you can literally fire as much oil into the cartridge as it can effectively drain. That's why having the correct drain spec is often more important than running a restrictor or not.

- If your drain is too small or kinked, you're going to be dumping oil into the exhaust whether you have 10psi or 100psi at the inlet because it can't drain.

- If your drain is too large and you over-restrict the inlet (more than required to achieve the max allowable pressure), you run the risk of starvation because the cartridge is draining effectively.

 

[turbotalon1g]

After Much research and talking to the only guy at PTE that knows anything-I am feeding my 6262 fromt he housing, with an UNRESTRICTED 4an. I ported the housign- and my peak pressure is never north of 80psi, even at cold start (20psi at idle)

No smoke, no issues-and it has been at 30 psi since day one. ZERo, and I mean ZERO shaft play thus far. They recommend -4 unrestricted due to the VOLUME they want in the housing-you have to remember restricting the line will in turn severely restrict the volume. IMO, I would avoid restriction if you can unless yo are running a BB center.

Over the years I have used -3, restricted -4, and I have seen the best results with PTE turbos with what I am ruining now.

Is that with a ported housing? I hate how high the pressure gets.

 

[Marceldsm]

Filter housing- use a restrictor if necessary to get your peak pressure number down to around 70psi at wide-open throttle. Don't over-restrict or you'll put the turbo at risk....and be sure your oil drain is large enough and has no kinks.

well ### size restrictor you recomand for a scm 6152 running from the oil housing ? beeing that i have no balance shafts

 

[SpoolinTalonAWD]

I stumbled across this while randomly going through YouTube. What do you guys think??

DIY turbo high oil pressure regulator - YouTube

 

[JusMX141]

Girlfriend was cute.

You can achieve the same result without ever worrying about a shutoff valve failing / leaking by buying a small restrictor and drilling it out to the size you need, taking note of the pressure change each time by having a gauge temporarily rigged post-restrictor. I'd trust that a little more than his setup there.

 

[docb002000]

So I am wondering after chasing down all the link found here and some others, if feeding my garrett gt40r (4088r) DBB turbo from the ofh with BS removed was the best of ideas even with the supplied resristor. Anyone have this turbo if so where or how did you feed it?

 

[JusMX141]

Let's let the guys who built the turbo answer that for you.

Restrictor size will always depend on how much oil pressure your engine is generating-there is no single restrictor size suited for all engines. Ball-bearing turbochargers can benefit from the addition of an oil restrictor, as most engines deliver more pressure than a ball bearing turbo requires. The benefit is seen in improved boost response due to less windage of oil in the bearing. In addition, lower oil flow further reduces the risk of oil leakage compared to journal-bearing turbochargers. Oil pressure entering a ball-bearing turbocharger needs to be between 40 psi and 45 psi at the maximum engine operating speed. For many common passenger vehicle engines, this generally translates into a restrictor with a minimum of 0.040" diameter orifice upstream of the oil inlet on the turbocharger center section. Again, it is imperative that the restrictor be sized according to the oil pressure characteristics of the engine to which the turbo is attached. Always verify that the appropriate oil pressure is reaching the turbo. The use of an oil restrictor can (but not always) help ensure that you have the proper oil flow/pressure entering the turbocharger, as well as extract the maximum performance.

Ideally it would be much better to feed that turbo from a low-pressure source, like the head.

 

[Dsmj89]

Was going over this thread and back in the days and Justin you said to feed any MHI turbo from the head.
Then you said through message that anything above stock boost pressure to run it from the OFH.

I'm confused as to where to run it now since i will be buying a new stainless steel line soon to replace the currently half-rigged one in my car soon.

 

[JusMX141]

This thread was created at a time when there were no published operating pressures (or at least they weren't well-known) for basically any turbo. Now we know the oiling info for everything but PTE who seems to give you a different answer every time you call.

For 2G guys it's easier to recommend the filter housing feed and .070" restrictor for a MHI turbo than having them cap off the filter housing and buy everything needed to run the turbo to the head due to the location of the factory T25 feed.

 

[docb002000]

Let's let the guys who built the turbo answer that for you.



Ideally it would be much better to feed that turbo from a low-pressure source, like the head.

Thanks

 

[Dsmj89]

Sounds good, thanks Justin.
I have a small 16g so i guess i will go with the feed from the OFH then.

 

[JusMX141]

I'm still thoroughly convinced that any factory MHI turbo will survive at the head as long as your engine is still healthy enough to give a decent amount of pressure and volume for the turbo at the head source. Once you change to an upgraded thrust plate or modify the turbo's intenal oil distribution in any way as some rebuilders and aftermarket companies like FP do on their performance turbos, you should definitely move the feed to the filter housing and use the recommended restrictor.

 

[coltboostin]

This thread was created at a time when there were no published operating pressures (or at least they weren't well-known) for basically any turbo. Now we know the oiling info for everything but PTE who seems to give you a different answer every time you call.

For 2G guys it's easier to recommend the filter housing feed and .070" restrictor for a MHI turbo than having them cap off the filter housing and buy everything needed to run the turbo to the head due to the location of the factory T25 feed.

Just an FYI-they always recommend -4an, unrestricted-max of 75psi, min of 15psi. Its only when us DSM'ser say "I have more oil pressure than that" or "my turbo is smoking" that they offer up alternate solutions. If you have BS removed-take the time, port your housing, make it right. I feed my PTE 4am unrestricted-ported the housing well, and see 12psi at 180 oil temps- 80psi at redline-turbo does not smoke, and is ABOLUTLY perfect after 4k miles of use.

Restrictions kill oil volume into the turbo. When you have a SB turbo that lives for XX amount of volume, why kill it?!

 

[dsmspoolin]

Ok so I've read all 5 pages but still am unclear about what bb guys are doing for oil feed. About to install a gt35r. I want to go from the head but is a restrictor still needed with the pressure drop at the head? Is an inline filter needed? Its not like the oil from the head is "dirty" oil. Also I didnt see Shep using one .

 

[goodhart]

I'm still thoroughly convinced that any factory MHI turbo will survive at the head as long as your engine is still healthy enough to give a decent amount of pressure and volume for the turbo at the head source. Once you change to an upgraded thrust plate or modify the turbo's intenal oil distribution in any way as some rebuilders and aftermarket companies like FP do on their performance turbos, you should definitely move the feed to the filter housing and use the recommended restrictor.

Ok, so my plan is to run my small 16g from the head, no balance shafts and pushing it for all it's worth on e85. But, I have recently contemplated running the Kiggly HLA as part of my catch can setup. Should I move the oil feed to the OFH or will there still be sufficient oil from the head after doing the Kiggly HLA?

 

[JusMX141]

Definitely go to the filter housing if using a Kiggly HLA restrictor....they're designed to keep less oil in the head and more oil in the pan for drag racing purposes. Not sure how it would directly effect head pressure at the turbo, but I'd hate to find out the hard way.