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2G Lean issue

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Michael Wucher

Proven Member
52
11
Apr 19, 2020
Norfolk, Virginia
Hello all, so 3 weeks ago, I started to get remote tuned by Ricky Nichols.

During the tuning process we figured out that @6k RPM's my 950cc FIC injectors were @85% IDC (This was problematic since I want to run E85) so we put the tune on pause while I ordered larger injectors. Fast forward a week, I get my brand new Alpha Injection 2200cc injectors in, and I install them. I went out for a test pull after changing some settings within ECMLink, and if I try doing a WOT pull, after about 3k, the car leans out completely and begins to bang & pop (sounds like rolling anti lag LOL).

So I thought maybe they just needed further tuning to be set correctly. Well this morning, we continued the tune, hopped on the highway for a 3-4 pull 3k-6k rpm. I began to do my WOT pull @3k, same exact thing happens, bangs & pops.

So the tuner tells me that he's seen this issue before & suggested I go home and begin to check all the fueling components because it's having delivery issues. He tells me to check the sending unit to make sure the little o-ring isn't crooked. When I pulled off the sending unit, the o-ring was fine, however, I did notice that my feed line has a kink in it from the previous guy who did a hack job by modding the feed line (see attached pic of sending unit).

Then I checked fuel filter, no issues there. Lastly, I checked my FPR. I took it apart, diaphragm was intact, as well as the spring. So tuner is saying that the sending unit feed line having the kink in it is most likely the culprit, but I purchased this sending unit from a guy back last November and it has been on the car since. It never had this issue of leaning out until I installed these 2200cc injectors. I did delete the resistor pack with the included pigtail that came with injectors so that's not the issue.

My question is what could possibly be the issue with these injectors, and is there any way that I can test them to find out? I'm truly stumped & would greatly appreciate any feedback/help as this is very annoying and I just want to be tuned so I can start hitting boost again! I do intend on fixing my kink within the sending unit by converting it to -6AN. Thanks for reading

Fuel Pump: AEM 340lph
FPR: Fuel labs 51501
Base fuel pressure set @ 43.5psi

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Did this started happening when you switched injectors and modified you DSMLink settings? I'd start there, make sure you haven't induced any vacuum leaks with the the injector install and please post a log of it misbehaving.

Was the prior tuning on Gas and the current with E85?
 
Did this started happening when you switched injectors and modified you DSMLink settings? I'd start there, make sure you haven't induced any vacuum leaks with the the injector install and please post a log of it misbehaving.

Was the prior tuning on Gas and the current with E85?
Would a bad injector o ring cause a possible vac leak? I can definitely get a log for you
 
The O-Ring between the injector and intake manifold (Insulator) can as can the spacer (Injector Sheet) between the injector and fuel rail that holds in into the manifold so it seals.

When did this start?
 
The O-Ring between the injector and intake manifold (Insulator) can as can the spacer (Injector Sheet) between the injector and fuel rail that holds in into the manifold so it seals.

When did this start?
This issue started when I put the new injectors in. Couple days later, I noticed one of the injector o rings was cocked, so I took off the rail to re-adjust it and that’s when I noticed the o ring was torn. Also forgot to mention that I over-torqued the middle fuel rail bolt, and it snapped.

Currently as we speak I’m taking off the rail to put new rings and get the snapped bolt out

Update: New rings installed, could not get snapped bolt out. Still having the same issue. Is it possible that the kinked supply line on the hangar is my issue?

With 2200cc injectors, I guess it would make sense that it’s not flowing enough fuel. And with 950cc injectors, I guess it had just enough flow. Let me know what you think
 
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You didn't answer. We're you previously on gas and now on e85? The kinked line is definitely a problem. Look how much its crushed. Is it the root cause maybe not but it isn't helping. Rule it out. You're going to have to anyway.
 
My bad, strictly on pump gas at the moment. Waiting for the tune to be finished before I start running e
You didn't answer. We're you previously on gas and now on e85? The kinked line is definitely a problem. Look how much its crushed. Is it the root cause maybe not but it isn't helping. Rule it out. You're going to have to anyway
 
My bad, strictly on pump gas at the moment.

Then if it was working well enough to run up to 6k with the old injectors you'll have the same flow (but not the same pulse width) with the new injectors to hit 6k but it sounds like you can't, so you added a new problem here.
 
Until you can post a log, fixing the fuel sender and the injector insulators are the only suggestions I have.

If you think you have fixed the injectors try pressure testing the intake at the elbow to make sure you have a good seal.
 
Until you can post a log, fixing the fuel sender and the injector insulators are the only suggestions I have.

If you think you have fixed the injectors try pressure testing the intake at the elbow to make sure you have a good seal.
The first log is short, it still had the issue when I did the WOT. 2nd log is just casual driving
 

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I responded to him private but figure I would make the information public as well.

The kink is an obvious issue but unlikely the reason why its going lean the moment you touch the throttle. There are so many issues with the mod list and the tune that are all contributing to making this car not tuneable and hopefully one of them is the reason that will fix his initial complaint. There will be more unless he fixes the following

-Reinstall the factory front o2 sensor in the stock location (Denso only). There isn't anything else that is better or more reliable than this sensor to control closed loop fueling. Simulating on a street car is asking for issues. Me personally, I like to see fuel trims perfect on the stock front o2 and wideband showing 14.7. Its a way to double check both sensors are reading the way they should. I cant tell you how many times I have tuned a car with both sensors and they contradict each other. Fuel trims will read perfect and wideband idling 17.5. And 99% of the time, its an issue with wideband wither its installed wrong, leak, calibrated wrong, damaged, etc. Going into tuning a car simulating is for the inexperienced and blind. But its your car so do as youd like

-He has KNOCK OFF 2200cc injectors and they are setup incorrectly in the tune anyways. In my opinion, we should only be using FIC or ID injectors. Its what I have the best success with. I cant tell you how many times I have tuned different brands and had nothing but issues when comparing to an FIC or ID. I have used FID before but I don't like the tip in on them but other than that, they seem ok. Also, just because you have FIC or ID, doesnt solve the entire issue. They have to be new or recently flow tested/cleaned. If you are not doing that and trying to tune your car, you're asking for trouble. You truly have no idea the history of that injector or what it has been through. Spend the short money to verify before it costs you thousands

-He has a paper filter on e85... NO! For E85, please run only the 6 micron fiberglass element. Running a 40 micron SS can work but still not a fan. Junk still gets through and clogs injectors

-Not that this is an issue right now but that fuel pump is to small. I would replace it with a Walbro 450, drill the siphon and you're good for 500-550hp on e85. I have found those 320 pumps to be no better than a 255 pump. I maybe get 1-2psi of boost out of them before pressure starts tanking on a 16g. Yeah yeah I know you all have made 2000hp on a single Walbro 190. You can also run down the track with 1qt of oil in your engine. It doesn't mean you should. Also, swapping out the pump allows you to inspect the install of the 320. There could be a chance you're missing pieces and its leaking internally?

-On turbo cars... LOG FUEL PRESSURE! Trying to diagnose a fueling issue without logging pressure is like trying to read a book blindfolded. It takes 15min and costs about $30 to log pressure so why hasn't this been done yet? There is a chance this car has perfect fuel pressure and you're chasing your tail. It very well could be clogged injectors. If you logged pressure, it will tell you where to go. So right now, you are assuming

-And last... whoever is tuning this thing is on the struggle bus. It looks like 2 different tuners are touching this thing. They took a stock timing table, added a snap crackle pop row on decel and looks like they let their 2 year old hit keys in the boost area. And the VE table looks like a copy and paste from another tuner I know of and thats not how VE works on engines. Matter of fact... he adjusts the injector scaling to match that VE table. el oh el. Above are all things your tuner should advise you of right from the get. In my opinion, this is basic 101 information anyone in the e85 DSM game should know. If I was tuning this car, it wouldnt meet the minimum requirements for me to even take payment nevermind actually trying to tune it. Any tuning done on this car with the parts it has installed will result in so many retunes and that sounds expensive. Do it right or not at all :)

Thats my .02 cents.
 
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