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I can't get the Talon to turn in (DG's)

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conedoctor

Probationary Member
8
0
Mar 2, 2006
Calgary, AB_Canada
New to this forum but not to DSM's and have been doing AutoX for over 10 years.

I am getting the car ready for next season and want to sort out some issues.

I own Dennis Grant's 97 Talon TSi, I have had it for about 3 years now and after doing repairs and having some kids I want to sort the car out and go fast now.

The car is set up as Dennis had with no changes but for some tires, I am on some 245/40-17 V710 right now not the 285/30-18 A6's I should be but the Kumhos were cheap and the season is 1/2 done so I grabbed them.

Anyways the car will just not turn in for me at all, my big problem right now is I have to assume Dennis has the correct parts on the car because he researched the crap out of it so I don't want to make changes to it.

I know the car was set up for more open courses and works well on high speed courses, I don't get to run them often so I need a few setups maybe as most of the time we are in small lots and I need lots of front grip.

So in the front springs are 900lbs and rear 600lbs, I have the shocks chraged to about 120 this is down from the 150psi Dennis said but not much so I assume they are good. Front RM bar and stock rear bar.

Now I know an AWD will push but it will not turn good at all and will not transition, going through slalom the front just skids when I turn.

I hate being on a budget but last year was bad and Im lucky to even be out racing be it on tiny tires.

Could the change in tire size be my whole problem?

I kind of think not as I should not need big tires to be fast, faster yes but when I was working the course at the last event I can just see how easy other cars seem to turn in. I let the driver on an STX WRX drive and his car had way more turn in as well.

I did try a bit of "slow down go faster" but I went slower :(

So input is welcome.
 
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Whats your front toe? That will have a huge impact on turn in. It you want "crisper" turn in, more front toe is needed. Also how much camber do you have up front compared to rear?

However from the way you describe it in the slalom, I am betting this has to do more with you overcooking and not keeping the front tires in their happy spot. Even slowing down, some people just cant get it right, have an instructor drive your car/help you out. (trust me, this is helpful, even professional drivers seek CONSTANT instructors to help them)
 
Don't people use forza to set up shocks and stuff like that. Whenever I played forza I would set my toe out so it was easier to turn my evo in the corners. You have bad understeer so playing with the alignment up front should help.
 
I'm going to check the toe on the weekend as I can't find the sheet from the shop but I think it is 1/8 front 1/16 rear.

I had a WRX guy drive it on the weekend and he agreed that it would not turn in as good as his STX WRX did so I don't think I was going to fast, we do have a national champion in our club so I think a co drive is in order for some help.

I still do think it is too stiff and after reading more of Dennis's old posts I am leaning toward that, I did try to slow down and it would bite but I was going real slow. We did have a G circle in the course and once I got in and settled it was great but if I was just a touch to fast I would slide but power on mid corner was great and I just would start speeding up.

I feel like such a newbie, 10+ years doing this and I know so little about setup.
 
I'm going to check the toe on the weekend as I can't find the sheet from the shop but I think it is 1/8 front 1/16 rear.

I had a WRX guy drive it on the weekend and he agreed that it would not turn in as good as his STX WRX did so I don't think I was going to fast, we do have a national champion in our club so I think a co drive is in order for some help.

I still do think it is too stiff and after reading more of Dennis's old posts I am leaning toward that, I did try to slow down and it would bite but I was going real slow. We did have a G circle in the course and once I got in and settled it was great but if I was just a touch to fast I would slide but power on mid corner was great and I just would start speeding up.

I feel like such a newbie, 10+ years doing this and I know so little about setup.

1/8 up front should be plenty enough for turn in. I would personally pull down the front spring to 750 or 800 but im not sure thats going to solve your turn in.

You said you were on older tires, what was your pressures? Did you monitor them every run? Also you never said how much static camber you had in the front and rear.
 
Car is still on the trailer so I am going to get it off and in the garage this weekend.

I will measure the toe and camber and start with that, I will also be swaping the front springs to 600# as I have them.


Dennis set the car up to use 285/30-18 A6 tires, I have gone to 245/40-17 V710 (new square shoulder) for this year to save money.

I may have been over driving a bit but the front just wants to wash out so easy, I will try the 600# spring up front and report back.
 
So in the front springs are 900lbs and rear 600lbs.
Really? I thought DG was running 400lbs rears. Interesting.

But yeah, 900lbs front may be overkill for 245's. I'm currently running 900's with my 275 tires as I need a lot of spring to keep the tires out of the fenders. Back when I ran 245's, I had good success with 700lbs front / 400lbs rear.

Remember that these cars are more of the point & shoot kind, so focus on slow-in / fast-out while driving. Get the car setup for corner exit and let the AWD do it's thing. :)
 
Your correct Scott it is 400# rear, I was wrong.


I can't wait until next year when I can just get me another set of 285/30-18 A6's and be done with it.

On corner exit, I am still learning how to drive with the front and center Quaife and what they will do. If the front is planted I can get on the gas very early and keep the line I just have to tell my brain that I will pull out of the corner.


Now a bit of an update, the rear mounting point for the front left upper A arm moves. So this is gets me positive camber and toe out on the left wheel when I turn right, not awesome! I think this may be a huge reason why the car won't turn well and the stiff springs are not helping.

So I will repair the mount and go to the 600#F/400#R springs.

The next event is the 14th so fingers crossed, but the A arm mount Im sure will make a huge improvment.
 
Ever think of calling denis grant and talking to him himself>

I'm going to check the toe on the weekend as I can't find the sheet from the shop but I think it is 1/8 front 1/16 rear.

I had a WRX guy drive it on the weekend and he agreed that it would not turn in as good as his STX WRX did so I don't think I was going to fast, we do have a national champion in our club so I think a co drive is in order for some help.

I still do think it is too stiff and after reading more of Dennis's old posts I am leaning toward that, I did try to slow down and it would bite but I was going real slow. We did have a G circle in the course and once I got in and settled it was great but if I was just a touch to fast I would slide but power on mid corner was great and I just would start speeding up.

I feel like such a newbie, 10+ years doing this and I know so little about setup.

Parts are easy to put on and get together..........Setup is whats hard and will have you:banghead:
 
With the smaller less grippy tires, I would try a bit less rebound up front. Also whats your tire pressure?
 
Obviously, the A-arm eye-bolt mounts must be fixed, but, after that, another option would be to leave the springs alone and drive the car as it was intended: violently, angrily, fast-in/slow-out.
 
The tyres are killing you - you don't have the grip that the car was setup for. Go back to the correct sized FRESH tyres before you change anything else. If all else fails, you can try running a 'wet' setup, as that will approximate the loss of grip you're experiencing from the narrow tyres. Whoever thought 245 would qualify as "narrow"...

If the Nitrogen pressures in the dampers have dropped you need to bring them back to the design spec, as changing the base pressure changes how the dampers work. Additionally, the gas had to go somewhere - it either leaked out of the reservoir cap (which is fine) or it leaked past the separator piston in the reservoir - that would be bad. If the gas leaked past the separator piston it will have contaminated the oil and compromised the damping that DG engineered - this means opening the damper up and changing out the damper fluid - DO NOT switch to a different brand/weight of fluid. use exactly the same fluid DG used, as that will #### up the damping as well.

With luck though you may not have a leak - the drop from 150 to 120 is consistent with connecting a pressure gauge to the dampers; the gas volume is typically tiny, the volume required to pressurise the gauge is sufficient to drop the reading that much.
 
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