Hypergound wires?!??

[Turboniam]

Since my car is 13 years old, has had countless work done on it time and time again AND it has a "starting" issue, I can't see how doing this mod will hurt anything... 5.4 hp and 16.4 ft/lbs for just grounding the car is incredible.

And if this only works for cars that are:

1) old
2) have bad grounds
3) are suckers

then it just might work for me!

 

[TwoLiterV8Eater]

5 HP is negligable on turbo DSMs. There are so many factors that could make a DSM gain or lose 5 HP its not even funny. Like whats already been said, dyno numbers can be fudged, and I wouldnt personally trust Import Tuners dyno numbers even if I saw them in person. I don't have any specific examples at hand...but I remember flipping through issues at work and laughing at some of the numbers they get from things for civics and stuff. Some of it is quite unbelievable.

 

[Defiant]

I'm iffy about anything a magazine says about something it makes money from as an advertiser. Like what Road & Track says about Honda.

 

[MNGSX]

Get a DVOM (digital volt ohm meter).

Since were primarily concerned with igniton grounding place one probe on the black wires at the coil and the other on the negative terminal.

Do it again but between a spak plugs hex or the threaded hole and the neg terminal.

One could likely get the same effect as this kit by going to a yard and pulling ground wires from a wreck and doubling up each connection with stock stuff.

Two wires of the same resistance act like one wire with half the resistance.

 

[Enigma_Man]

Good connections are always good. However, paying $100 for some wires, and washers is beyond retarded.

So, to sum up, it wouldn't be bad to do this as a DIY, and if you have any shoddy grounds, it'll fix them. But don't buy the "kit".

-Jesse

 

[brads]

Originally posted by MNGSX
Get a DVOM (digital volt ohm meter).

Since were primarily concerned with igniton grounding place one probe on the black wires at the coil and the other on the negative terminal.

What would this tell you? That the coil isn't directly hooked up to ground, unless you have modified your ignition. The stock coil pack is connected to ground on one side, and the other side goes to the power transistor. This side gets "grounded" to turn the coil on to charge it. When you are just sitting there with the car off, its not doing anything, and isn't grounded.

Originally posted by MNGSX

Do it again but between a spak plugs hex or the threaded hole and the neg terminal.

Useless, the spark current doesn't travel that way anyhow. The current goes from one side of the firing coil to the other, not to ground.

Brad

 

[MNGSX]

The current goes from one side of the firing coil to the other, not to ground.

I forgot about that... You are right. The current flows across one plug gap to the head then jumps the other cylinders plug gap.

But as for that switched ground.

What would this tell you?

The whole point of using a DVOM is to measure if changing the ground wire actually did anything to improve the connection.

The ignition is a switched ground. So trace the circuit to the point just before it gets switched to that part.

It is switched but the ignition still gets a ground from somewhere. A meter will be able to tell you the resistance across the circuit to ground.

Simply put the negative side eventually flows thru a ground wire back to the battery somewhere.

I just forgot that the negative side was switched.

 

[racer]

well i bought ground wires kit for 50$ and instaled it on the same spots as it sais at the "Import Tuner" exsept the one that goes to injector resistors cuz N/A dsm doesnt have injector resistor so i conected the valve cover to the shock 14 mm bolt.I m going to dyno this tursday and will see if I gona get ANY gains from it and I ll post here the results.
I also put new "O2 bosch" so i duno if I get some it might be cuz of the sensor i duno but i dont think that only new O2 can give any gains so if i have some it would be from the ground wires.

 

[brads]

Originally posted by racer
well i bought ground wires kit for 50$ and instaled it on the same spots as it sais at the "Import Tuner" exsept the one that goes to injector resistors cuz N/A dsm doesnt have injector resistor so i conected the valve cover to the shock 14 mm bolt.I m going to dyno this tursday and will see if I gona get ANY gains from it and I ll post here the results.
I also put new "O2 bosch" so i duno if I get some it might be cuz of the sensor i duno but i dont think that only new O2 can give any gains so if i have some it would be from the ground wires.

So are you planning on comparing this test to some dyno test done previously to see the gain?
Or are you planning on running the test with them installed, removing them, rerunning the test, and then repeating this procedure another time or so to see how repeatable your results are?

Brad

 

[brads]

Originally posted by MNGSX



The ignition is a switched ground. So trace the circuit to the point just before it gets switched to that part.

It is switched but the ignition still gets a ground from somewhere. A meter will be able to tell you the resistance across the circuit to ground.

The ground for this circuit is in the power transistor harness, thats where you need to test, which was why I was pointing out testing at the coils isn't the right way to do it.

Brad

 

[racer]

Brads I dynoed the car 2 weeks ago and the car run rich and it showed
112 HP and 113 TQ on the wheels.So what I did is replacing my old stock O2 that has never been changed since the car was made with a new bosch O2 and also changed my spark plugs (I was runing with splitfire) with factory ngk from the dilership.And now i instaled the ground wires and I ll dyno again this thursday.So I duno if i get gain I wont be sure if it is from the ground or from the new O2 and spark plugs.What do u think? is it posible to gain any HP just from O2 and spark plugs?Cuz I can not remove the ground it took me long time to instal it.So I dont know wil;l see what is it gona do.

 

[brads]

Originally posted by racer
.What do u think? is it posible to gain any HP just from O2 and spark plugs?Cuz I can not remove the ground it took me long time to instal it.So I dont know wil;l see what is it gona do.

Plugs would affect your HP definitely, especially if you are changing brands. O2 isn't as direct of an effect, since it doesnt adjust fuel at WOT, which is how people normally dyno. But it can affect peak power levels some. Either one of those would be enough to make the comparison of the 2 dyno charts a poor way to see if the ground wires do anything. The very fact that you are testing on 2 different days makes it not very accurate. I know that there are atmospheric compensation on dynos for varying conditions, but I wouldn't trust it enough to pick up such a small HP difference reliably.

Brad

 

[racer]

well here in Tampa florida the temperatures during noons are almoust same so I dont think that will be a big factor in my case.But my car defenetly runz better when it is colder outside.the colder the better.
Well about the sparkplugs I didnt know that they give HP gain.
Well i hope to put down 120HP on the wheels,since my compresion is not verry good 120HP would be grate.

 

[racer]

O well I just got back from the dyno and gess what as I tought NO F..KIN DIFERENCE,NON.Same power and same torq,so for everybody that wants to buy ground wires for his N/A DSM I would say dont waste ur money it is one of the many magic products on the mareket,such as UDP.

 

[LightningGSX]

Grounds aren't always just grounds.In cases like are cars,that have an ECM with analog to digital converters,the ground is a 0 volt reference.So if the sensors have a different 0 volt reference ,than the ECM, the sensors can be less accurate.In some cases the grounds can cause ground loops which would make the sensors even less accurate(hence lost power).So it make's sense that power gains can happen from proper grounding,because the sensors accuracy would increase.

 

[brads]

Most automotive sensors that use ground as a 0 volt reference have their own ground wire directly from the ECU.

Brad

 

[LightningGSX]

It was the only explaination of the dyno results that made sense to me.I plan on further investigation.But at any rate, $100 for $10 in wire and misc parts is definately not worth it.

 

[brads]

Originally posted by LightningGSX
It was the only explaination of the dyno results that made sense to me.I plan on further investigation.But at any rate, $100 for $10 in wire and misc parts is definately not worth it.

Oooh, if you were just looking for an explanation of the dyno results showing gains, I have a simple one for you...

operator error.

Its pretty common, more so than you'd think.

Brad

 

[LightningGSX]

I believe a properly placed ground could in fact lead to some HP gains.The claims seem somewhat exagerated but, I don't think it's all operator error.I have no proof to back that up,I do have the means of testing something like that,which is what I'll do.

 

[RuBiCaNT5X]

I made my own and the one thing I did notice was a tad better throttle response and a better overall idle. True, neither were horribly bad, but this is a "can't hurt" mod. Home Depot has everything you need for about 20 bux.

 

[brads]

Originally posted by LightningGSX
I believe a properly placed ground could in fact lead to some HP gains.The claims seem somewhat exagerated but, I don't think it's all operator error.I have no proof to back that up,I do have the means of testing something like that,which is what I'll do.

I don't believe that it will, as long as the cars grounds weren't horribly screwed up to begin with. But what do I know, I only design engine management systems for a living There are no valid reasons that I have seen for a thicker ground improving performance. I will be more than happy to bet you that you will not show gains if the tests are done properly.
You aren't the first to believe there has to be gains in it. But I have yet to see any credible proof of gains, just lots of speculation.

Brad

 

[MNGSX]

Yep those kits rate right up there with $50 + oil treatments.

 

[tylerwal]

^^^where can you get those at???

 

[LightningGSX]

I said properly placed,not thicker.

 

[brads]

Originally posted by LightningGSX
I said properly placed,not thicker.

I should correct my statement:

There are no valid reasons that I have seen for a thicker ground or different ground placement improving performance for our cars.

Thats better.

What would you do to properly place the grounds? The analog sensors are all grounded in the harness, which goes directly back the the ECU sensor ground. They don't appear to be grounded at the block, so no possibility for ground loops. The wire gauge is more than adequate for the current flow, especially considering the fact that the A/D converter in the ECU is only 8 bit, so it doesnt have that fine of a resolution.

I 'm interested in what sort of ground placement you think would improve upon this?

And tylerwal, I will sell you an oil treatment for $50. Just paypal me the money

Brad