1G Help! No crank no start!

[92tsi4x4]

I replaced the idle control sensor because I was having issues with idle surge. I tested the ohms on the sensor and it didn’t test correctly per Haynes manual and was filthy so I replaced it.

Upon replacing it the idle rpm was out of adjustment and so I started the procedure following the manual on TPS voltage adjustment and BISS screw adjustment. The manual said to ground the ignition timing at the firewall and ground pin #10 on the diagnostic port to the firewall on the inside.

When I turned the key on to start now it just clicks and the engine won’t crank over. All the fuses are good, starter relay tested for volts it’s good, ECU clicks and the CEL comes on and goes out after 5 seconds and the capacitors aren’t leaking or burnt.

Anybody have this happen before? Maybe the ignition switch on the lock cylinder? Any help is greatly appreciated

And before I get yelled at I’ve read article after article and have searched VFAQs high and low for days and have not found any solution in the threads.
Thanks guys

 

[pauleyman]

Show us what you grounded under the hood.

 

[92tsi4x4]

Show us what you grounded under the hood.

I grounded the bigger plug right behind the negative battery terminal with 1 metal pin and 1 pink plastic pin inside of it

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[pauleyman]

That's right. Now what about the other one

 

[92tsi4x4]

That's right. Now what about the other one

The other is the #10 pin (white wire) on the OBD1 diagnostic port I grounded (using alligator clips and piece of wire) to a bolt on the fire wall under the dash close to the steering column. It’s hard to get a pic at the moment the cars up on my lift and can’t open the driver door much. with or without the ground jumpers connected all I get is a click from the ecu when turning the key

 

[steve]

I don't see the battery negative to firewall cable.

Sounds like you're chasing a starter problem if it won't crank over. Maybe something you did caused it or maybe something else failed since it last ran. The starter circuit is relatively simple but first we need to know, manual or auto, with or without any alarm/remote start factory or aftermarket, and what year.

You have been here long enough to make a profile, please do so now.

Side note, if you had a bad ISC you need to make sure it didn't damage the ECU. And the Haynes manual shouldn't be your primary reference for your DSM.

 

[92tsi4x4]

I don't see the battery negative to firewall cable.

Sounds like you're chasing a starter problem if it won't crank over. Maybe something you did caused it or maybe something else failed since it last ran. The starter circuit is relatively simple but first we need to know, manual or auto, with or without any alarm/remote start factory or aftermarket, and what year.

You have been here long enough to make a profile, please do so now.

Side note, if you had a bad ISC you need to make sure it didn't damage the ECU. And the Haynes manual shouldn't be your primary reference for your DSM.

Thanks for the input. What part of my profile are you referring to because I’ve already filled out the about me and all the other fill in the blank crap. Did I miss something?

And back to the car it’s a 1992 talon Tsi Awd manual trans and doesn’t have any alarm or remote start just a plain old key. The car was starting every time just fine other than a high idle and idle surge. I know when I grounded the timing plug and grounded obd port is what caused it I just don’t know where to look other than the fuses and relays. I have power to everything when I turn the key on just gives me a click when trying to start. The starter is relatively new. And what manual other than Haynes do you suggest I buy?

 

[steve]

See how there are cars shown in my postings and the one in Pauleyman's, that 's a profile for each.

https://www.dsmtuners.com/dsm-profiles/authors/92tsi4x4.148328 should take you to where you create them.

Since you have the base setup the starter circuit is simple, Battery to Starter B+, Battery to Ignition Switch to Starter Relay to Clutch Safety Switch to ground on the relay coil side and Battery to Starter Relay to Starter on the contacts side of the Starter Relay.

One of the common failure modes is the CSS going bad or the little rubber stops that press the CSS wear out. Disconnecting the CSS connector disables it's ability to block the starter activation by activating the Starter Relay.

Checking that you get 12v to the starter solenoid input when you turn the ignition key to START will let you know if it's a starter problem and following it back to the ignition switch will identify where it's failing if you don't see the signal reach the starter.

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[92tsi4x4]

See how there are cars shown in my postings and the one in Pauleyman's, that 's a profile for each.

https://www.dsmtuners.com/dsm-profiles/authors/92tsi4x4.148328 should take you to where you create them.

Since you have the base setup the starter circuit is simple, Battery to Starter B+, Battery to Ignition Switch to Starter Relay to Clutch Safety Switch to ground on the relay coil side and Battery to Starter Relay to Starter on the contacts side of the Starter Relay.

One of the common failure modes is the CSS going bad or the little rubber stops that press the CSS wear out. Disconnecting the CSS connector disables it's ability to block the starter activation by activating the Starter Relay.

Checking that you get 12v to the starter solenoid input when you turn the ignition key to START will let you know if it's a starter problem and following it back to the ignition switch will identify where it's failing if you don't see the signal reach the starter.

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Thanks for the info, my apologies I added my car to my profile. I tracked down the starter wiring and it appears I knocked the wire on the starter spade terminal off or it vibrated loose. Problem resolved! I thought for sure I fried something when grounding the diagnostic port as the no crank no start happened at the exact time…. But hey that’s my luck! And do you have any recommendations on a paperback service manual? I really dislike the digital versions! Lol
I’m trying to dial in the idle at the moment, the isc tested bad on the ohm meter and was filthy so I replaced it. Checked the tps for ohms on pin 2 + 4 sensor side per Haynes manual and I’m not getting any ohm reading at all in any throttle position so I believe that may be the culprit. Idle is 1500 rpm and once car warms up idle starts surging 1500-1800

 

[pauleyman]

Thanks for the info, my apologies I added my car to my profile. I tracked down the starter wiring and it appears I knocked the wire on the starter spade terminal off or it vibrated loose. Problem resolved! I thought for sure I fried something when grounding the diagnostic port as the no crank no start happened at the exact time…. But hey that’s my luck! And do you have any recommendations on a paperback service manual? I really dislike the digital versions! Lol
I’m trying to dial in the idle at the moment, the isc tested bad on the ohm meter and was filthy so I replaced it. Checked the tps for ohms on pin 2 + 4 sensor side per Haynes manual and I’m not getting any ohm reading at all in any throttle position so I believe that may be the culprit. Idle is 1500 rpm and once car warms up idle starts surging 1500-1800

Ebay for paper manuals

 

[steve]

Mystery #1 solved.

Idle is 1500 rpm and once car warms up idle starts surging 1500-1800

1500 during warm up is high, but not unreasonable, but If the ISC and FIAV are working it will drop as the coolant temp rises. The ISC steps close pretty quickly from the 120 steps it first uses on cold starts (less if the ambient is warm) to 30 @ idle by the time the coolant temp reaches about 90F and the ECU starts to dither the fuel to see if the O2 wakes up. If the idle surges like you say then usually it's because you have air bypass leaks like from a stuck FIAV, bad PCV, looped TB ports or overly tight throttle cable, or external vacuum/boost leaks.

It doesn't take much to get in the position that it starts surging.

I bought a least one of the paper copies off eBay but my first 1991 copy was from the service department at the dealer right after I bought the car. Many of the others were gifts from Mitsubishi at one of the Owner's Days at the plant.

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Should we assume that it now starts and runs so the thread issue is resolved but is still surging?

 

[92tsi4x4]

Mystery #1 solved.



1500 during warm up is high, but not unreasonable, but If the ISC and FIAV are working it will drop as the coolant temp rises. The ISC steps close pretty quickly from the 120 steps it first uses on cold starts (less if the ambient is warm) to 30 @ idle by the time the coolant temp reaches about 90F and the ECU starts to dither the fuel to see if the O2 wakes up. If the idle surges like you say then usually it's because you have air bypass leaks like from a stuck FIAV, bad PCV, looped TB ports or overly tight throttle cable, or external vacuum/boost leaks.

It doesn't take much to get in the position that it starts surging.

I bought as least one of the paper copies off eBay but my first 1991 copy was from the service department at the dealer right after I bought the car and my others were gifts from Mitsubishi at one of the Owner's Days at the plant.

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Should we assume that it now starts and runs so the thread issue is resolved but is still surging?

Thanks for the info. It does start and run but the idle is still surging. I just tested the ohms on the coolant temp sensor and I’m getting a reading of zero ohms so I ordered a new one. I also ordered a new O2 sensor as the 4 wires at the top of the sensor look a little melted. I ran a vacuum gauge off the intake and I’m only getting a reading of 10-12. But I think the low vacuum reading might be from the large amount of fuel the engines receiving and bogging it down. All of the vacuum lines are new, I sprayed b12 chem tool all around the intake manifold, throttle body, ic piping, bov, biss, injectors, fpr, brake booster and didn’t get any type of indication of leaks. I’m going to Home Depot tomorrow to get parts to make boost leak tester and see if I can find any with that method.

And as for a manual I found a website called faxon literature and ordered a 2 volume set of factory service manuals. Anything has to be better than this Haynes manual

 

[92tsi4x4]

Update…worked on it this evening. so the O2 and coolant temp sensors didn’t help the idle surge issue. I made a homemade boost leak tool and found a couple leaks, some on the IC piping and moved some clamps around and fixed those. The hallman manual boost controller was dumping air which I read in another thread is common so just placed a barbed fitting and removed it from the equation for now. One of my fuel injectors was leaking air around the bottom seal so I ordered new seals and o-rings to freshen those up. The egr had a slight leak so I ordered a block off plate.If those don’t fix the idle surge issue I guess fiav block off plate will be on the next online order ….. idk guess I’m running out of possibilities. Has anyone ever had a leak around fuel injector seals while doing a boost leak test???

 

[1999RSfwd]

Has anyone ever had a leak around fuel injector seals while doing a boost leak test?

Yes you can find leaks there. Also I believe a member on here once had an injector body leak during a boost leak test.

 

[92tsi4x4]

Yes you can find leaks there. Also I believe a member on here once had an injector body leak during a boost leak test.

Thanks for the info!

 

[92tsi4x4]

Anybody got a recommendation on where to get throttle body shaft seals? I’ve done boost leak test over and over at 25psi on a regulator. I e found leaks from pretty much everywhere, somehow I’m still idle surging???
Fiav and throttle body shaft seals are pretty much the only thing left that I can think of. I’m pretty sure my ignition timing is off but I be got it really close. Hard to dial ignition timing in with idle surging going on.

Also have the s90 throttle bodies gotten any better in quality? I read a lot of threads that are older saying they are junk. Any suggestions on aftermarket throttle bodies for a stock intake manifold? Debating on trashing the stock TB and going aftermarket… idk getting really frustrated on chasing this idle surge