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ECMlink Help needed understanding strange results when trying to tune car. Logs attached

TurboSpider

Proven Member
223
16
Nov 2, 2015
York, Pennsylvania
I pulled off throttle body elbow, cleaned butterfly and housing, loosened nut behind tps sensor. It was better but sometimes still went back to .67 at idle. I backed the little adjustment screw off that keeps the butterfly from closing too much. This seemed to fix the issue. It now seems to go back to .63 at idle all the time.

Changed global to 55.5. did a pull that I wasn't able to stay on it all the way due to highway traffic. Still got a good pull from from about 2,000 to 6,200 rpms. Then had to get out of it a little. Looked like it was pulling fuel so I went and changed the cells that I attached a screenshot of lowering fuel in those cells. Gonna do another pull with this table and see what I get.

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  • interrupted pull.elg
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TurboSpider

Proven Member
223
16
Nov 2, 2015
York, Pennsylvania
Hey guys, sorry it's been so long, I have been doing a couple things to the car that were not regarding tuning like inner tie rods, doing the big 3 power/ground wire upgrades (went to 4 gauge) and got a galant alternator installed trying to fix my low voltage issues. I bought a rebuilt alternator for a 97 galant and put in the car. Unfortunately, I (may) still be having an issue with voltage. But after doing lots of research on here maybe this isn't an issue at all. Basically when car is cold its putting out 14.2 volts. Not too long after it is starting to warm up, the idle goes down and so does the voltage. It creeps down to around 13 volts and even dipping down around 12.7 when fully warmed up (with no accessories on). My idle is set at 800 rpm right now. If i blip the throttle, voltage comes up to 14.2 and when I am driving, it stays there as well. Seems like the lower idle is causing low output maybe. I am wondering since this alternator is meant for a galant, the 2.4 liter engine in them may idle around 1,000 rpm so maybe the alterantor is built to only output more power closer to 1,000rpm?

Either way, I am now getting a good 14.2 volts when I am on the throttle so that is a plus. I went out and did a couple of pulls. For some reason I am still getting knock (grrrr) The temps here in PA have been declining and on this particular day it was in the high 50's I believe when did this pull. I am wandering if the colder air being more dense is screwing with my results? I am posting a log of the pull I did.

Pull starts at 107 seconds into log. About 110 seconds into the log the wideband factor goes to +10 for a short time and than around 112 seconds in when I am getting close to building some boost it goes positive again for a short time. Everywhere else in the pull the wideband factor is negative including right when I get my highest point of knock around 117 seconds into the log. I pulled a degree of timing between the 4500-5500 rpm on bottom four sections of the timing max octane table but still got some knock.

Should I try richening out the VE table in the cells where wideband factor was positive? I kinda figured that that both where only positive when I first started the pull and when the boost first started coming on so maybe the results where being skewed a little du to the sudden change in air flow from me first flooring it and then from the turbo starting to spool around 3k rpm.

Also if you have any ideas on my alternator please let me know. Trying to decide wether to send it back or not. I have seen many people on here saying theirs idles around the same voltage as mine is and then there is many saying it should be 14.3. I found in the factory service manual it actually gives voltage output readings when compared to engine temp and I remember it said when the engine is warmed up it says it should be around 13.1 I think. I have also attached a log labeled after alternator which is basically just to show battery voltage after I replaced the alternator and upgraded the positive wire going to alternator to fuse box, from fuse box to battery, from batter to chassis ground and from battery to engine with true good quality 4 gauge wire. I also cleaned battery terminals and made sure they were good and tight. Battery resting voltage is around 12.6-12.7. If you look at the alternator log you can watch voltage drop as car temp goes up.
 

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  • new knocl too much timing.elg
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  • after alternator.elg
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nice97civic

Supporting Member
341
17
Jan 29, 2004
lancaster, Pennsylvania
WBFactor should be as close to 0 as possible. As long as your gauge matches what link says for afr then you should be able to dial that in. Turn track log on so you can see the point in the ve table where the afr needs adjusted and go from there.
 

AWD-Tony

Supporting Member
6,796
3,683
Sep 11, 2017
Cincinnati, Ohio
It 3-4% rich when it starts to pick up knock so I would keep dialing in the VE table. Where WBfactor is positive, increase the values in the those cells and lower where wbfactor is negative.

For the alternator, 12's is too low for my liking. You can try increasing the idle to see if that helps. Otherwise, yeah get a replacement. What brand is the alternator? Not sure if this will help you situation. Some install a heat shield between the alt and downpipe
 
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TurboSpider

Proven Member
223
16
Nov 2, 2015
York, Pennsylvania
WBFactor should be as close to 0 as possible. As long as your gauge matches what link says for afr then you should be able to dial that in. Turn track log on so you can see the point in the ve table where the afr needs adjusted and go from there.
Ok yes I am trying thats what I am trying to do. Use track in the VE table to track what cell is being used when wb factor is off and adjusting it appropriately. The main problem is I cannot get a complete 3rd gear pull because I am getting knock over 2 degrees triggering my cel so I abort the pull when I see it flash. Afraid to stay in it too much if its knocking that bad.

So i did a pull today and messed around with the VE table lowering in most spots where the track showed it needed lowered and raising it where it needed raised. Its not perfect but for the most part its around + 1-4% from 3,000 rpm up until about 4,000 rpm. Once its around 4k, the wb factor is around - 1-2% and stays there until when I have to let off because I get cel light. After doing this, I was still getting knock so I lowered my max octane timing table on the cells that are being used and around the ones being used when I get the knock. It doesn't really seem to be helping that I can tell.

I did read lowering the timing too much can cause it to knock worse so not sure that is what is happening here or not as it may have gotten slightly worse but I cannot be sure because I wasn't able to get the best pull because of traffic. I attached a screen shot of what I changed my timing table max octane too. If you go back a page in this thread you can see where I was told to lower it a little to get an idea what it was then. In the bottom of the table where there is those 6s, they were lowered to that from 7s that they were set at when I got the attached log. I haven't done a pull since I changed them to 6s to see if that helped. Not sure if I should be changing my min octane timing to match max octane or not. The min and max tables don't match. I did start with a stock table and earlier in this thread I was told to lower a small section down a degree or two to get rid of the knock I was having at that time. I did that and it helped get it below 2 degrees but now with the cooler air I am getting it back above 2 degrees again.

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Attachments

  • After more timing and ve table reductions.ecm
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TurboSpider

Proven Member
223
16
Nov 2, 2015
York, Pennsylvania
It 3-4% rich when it starts to pick up knock so I would keep dialing in the VE table. Where WBfactor is positive, increase the values in the those cells and lower where wbfactor is negative.

For the alternator, 12's is too low for my liking. You can try increasing the idle to see if that helps. Otherwise, yeah get a replacement. What brand is the alternator? Not sure if this will help you situation. Some install a heat shield between the alt and downpipe
Is it possible for a 3-4% rich mixture cause knock. I saw you can get knock from being too rich but I figured it would have to be really rich for that to happen.

I am going to make a new post for the alternator on here so this thread doesn't get too confusing.
 

1990TSIAWDTALON

Moderator
9,673
5,508
Nov 14, 2013
Independence, Kansas
Have you used the Interpolate option on your timing table to smooth it out?
I took a random timing log from a member and then ran the Interpolate and you can see the difference in the smoothness of the table afterwards.
I didn't know if you had tried this or not but wanted it to be known that it is available to use. Just "right click" on the table and you can easily smooth out all or just some.
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Here is YOUR timing table smoothed out, just for reference.
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TurboSpider

Proven Member
223
16
Nov 2, 2015
York, Pennsylvania
Have you used the Interpolate option on your timing table to smooth it out?
I took a random timing log from a member and then ran the Interpolate and you can see the difference in the smoothness of the table afterwards.
I didn't know if you had tried this or not but wanted it to be known that it is available to use. Just "right click" on the table and you can easily smooth out all or just some.
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Here is YOUR timing table smoothed out, just for reference.
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Yes I did see there was an interpolate function however i am a little confused on how to use it and there is not much tutorials I have found that detail how to use it. Just people saying run it LOL.

Should I highlight only the cells I have changed and click interpolate or should I click the entire graph and interpolate? Or should I highlight all the cells EXCEPT for the ones I have changed and run it? Seems like if you change something in a cell to where you want it, if you run the interpolate and it changes it to a different number it would basically throwing the cell you just set out of wack.

Also what interopolate is best to use, left to right, corner to corner or up and down? Or do you run through all of them?
 

TurboSpider

Proven Member
223
16
Nov 2, 2015
York, Pennsylvania
Also, should I change my timinng min octane table to mirror my max table or be lower than the max octane table? The way it was set with the timing changes we have been making, the min octane table has higher timing in some cells than my max octane timing table. I would imagine that would throw it off worse.
 

1990TSIAWDTALON

Moderator
9,673
5,508
Nov 14, 2013
Independence, Kansas
Highlight to at least one cell beyond what you would like to blend and have it interpolate that. I did your WHOLE table and sometimes that isn't what you want. I have been tuning on a Holley Sniper setup (or helping, its my sons setup) and we smooth the areas that we want, not the whole thing. It can be helpful. ALWAYS take a copy of the log (or a picure) so you can return it to what you had if you don't like the results.
Just trying to help is all.
Copy and paste a 2g MinOct timing table into your MinOct table. It is safe.
 

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  • DSM-2G-stock.eda
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TurboSpider

Proven Member
223
16
Nov 2, 2015
York, Pennsylvania
Thanks very much for the suggestion and explanation on how to use the interpolate. The way it was set up when I did my log yesterday, it was higher than max octane in some spots which may have been throwing some things off. This morning I lowered max timing table to 6s in some spots where I was still getting knock and copied the min table to match the max table to avoid confusion. Car seemed to run better but I didn't get to do a good pull yet.


After your above post, I will now change the min octane table to back to stock and will try and smooth out max table around the changes I have made.

Thanks so much for your help. This log shows how I had it set as of this morning.
 

Attachments

  • Cold cruise to work thursday morning increasing idle to 1000 rpm to see if voltage changes.elg
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TurboSpider

Proven Member
223
16
Nov 2, 2015
York, Pennsylvania
Ok so it looks like I was already running the stock min octane table before I changed it this morning. The issues I see is that the min table bottom few cells in 5,000 + range is higher than where my max cells are set now. Attached is photo comparing the max and min tables side by side to make it a little easier to see the differences. Max table is on the left with the 6s at the bottom in the middle and the right side is the stock min table.

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1990TSIAWDTALON

Moderator
9,673
5,508
Nov 14, 2013
Independence, Kansas
I fooled around with your timing table and just blended the areas that were a little jagged. It was just for fun to see how it looked. You can do the same, you don't have to "save" it and if you click on the double arrows at the top of the menu, it will back up one frame, to whatever it was before.
You can change those 13's and 14's to 11's and 12's or 12's and 13's. Whatever you feel like. The only time that ECMLink looks at both tables is when you tell it to Enable the Ethanol Sensor under AuxMaps. Then it trys to "blend" them both, depending on your octane of fuel you are running. It requires speed density and the ethanol sensor and then just tries to blend the fuel and timing tables, if I am understanding it correctly.
 

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  • directaccess.2022.09.29-01.eda
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TurboSpider

Proven Member
223
16
Nov 2, 2015
York, Pennsylvania
I tried smoothing out the max octane timing table left to right a little bit from what I had it set at this morning. I got a log on the way home and didn't get a cel for the first time with it set this way. It seems like lowering the timing to the 6s in the bottom of the table has stopped it from getting any 2+ degrees of knock. At the most I got 0.4 degrees of knock during my pull after changing my table to the way it is shown under the timing table download. I would imagine if I loaded up the table you smoothed out, I would be getting loads of knock. I can try just to be sure. It seems like for some reason I am having to lower the timing table around the 4,500 to 5,000 range more than most people do. Don't know if that is because of the 272 cams I have or what. It was getting knock when it was 4-5 % rich so I don't think its was a lean issue. Either way, it seems like it lowered to an acceptable range by lowering the bottom section to 6s at the cost of some performance.

Here is a clipped section of my pull I did. Also I further adjusted my ve table to match what i am tracking in this most recent log. I than smoothed the table out some. It is looking better I think. Also my wb factor is a lot lower with only .5 % correction on a lot more of the pull. It starts getting richer in the higher rpms which i need to further work on.
 

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  • timing table.eda
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  • cold highway pull clipped.elg
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  • SMOOTHED OUT VE use cold highway pull to revert back if need be.ecm
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TurboSpider

Proven Member
223
16
Nov 2, 2015
York, Pennsylvania
got another log this morning. I attached a clip of the pull. Also here is a screenshot of how I changed the table to match the pull and smoothed it out some. If you want you can see if you would of made similar adjustments to the VE table like I did when comparing the two. I do know around 7500 + rpms needs some work, but I don't ever plan on taking it that high in the RPMs probably. Please let me know if you see anything that needs work.

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  • Friday KK2 Highway pull clipped.elg
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TurboSpider

Proven Member
223
16
Nov 2, 2015
York, Pennsylvania
I changed it again. I just richened a few cells in the 3000 range a little and tried to smooth the higher rpms section of the table out some

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TurboSpider

Proven Member
223
16
Nov 2, 2015
York, Pennsylvania
Looking better. Find a good road LOL.
No such thing, I live in Pennsylvania, our roads are probably the worst in the country with of course the highest taxes. Doesn't help that when I get around 5-6 the car gets uncomfortably unstable, feels like the front end is wondering left and right and the steering has more play if that makes sense. At 90 mph its a little nerve wracking to say the least. To the point I pretty much have to keep it in a straight line and can't even think of trying to change lanes. I think its a combination of torque steer along with the front end needing an alignment since I just did inner tie rods because I don't remember it being that bad before.
 
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