Help me go low 10s then 9s!

[Archer Fabrications]

Hey guys, well my ultimate goal for the car is a 9.9 after fully gutted, i know weight is going to be my number one enemy but I'm very ambitious and i will reach my goal one way or another. Before i hit my 9.9 i wanna see how far i can take things with minimal weight reduction. Let me know what on my setup could be improved to hit a low 10 with weight or potential 9 second pass after weight reduction. Let me know if any of my mods don't exactly compliment eachother for these goals

Car is a 99 gsx with a 7 blade billet hx40 currently the car has a .55 ar bep and i know I'm not gonna make 9s on that, the plan is to go .70 ar t3.

The current mods are all in my profile but i guess i'll list the important ones and what i think should change

9.2:1 mahle & Scat 2.0 6 bolt acl bearings .020 over
All arp 2000 hardware rod bolts, mains, head studs
Stock intake manifold 2g
2g head not ported
Bc 272/272s
Stock springs
Stock 1g TB
Stock cam gears
3g lifters
Hx40 on bolt on .55
dnp tunular manifold dsm flange
Pte 1000cc
A1000afpr -6an from rail
Stock tank to rail line
Wally 255 hp not rewired
ETS 4" fmic
Tial 38
3" dp back
Stock 02 housing
Shep stage 3 evoiii 1st
Stock rear end and drive shaft and t case
Act 2600 on sprung 6 puck
Blown kyb agx on eibachs


Now the things i plan to bolt on to replace some of the stock crap are as follows.

T3 manifold, .70 ar bep, custom down pipe 02 eliminator, kiggley beehives, fic 2150s, Koni's DG style. And maayybe a different set of cams (hks?) and Magnus race intake manifold. -6 fuel lines, and rewire the wally.


I made a 6.9 @ 78.6 1/8th (550ft track) on 92 pump with a shitty 1.8 60 on toyo proxes 4s i haven't been to the 1/4 yet sice i just moved to Canada, and previously my attempts at the 1/4 were rained out in Seattle. I Later on dyno'd 392 awhp at English racing with low timing on 92 octane and a lower boost then i was running at the track, 22psi. Due to a bent cam gear and crank pulley that are now both replaced. I was hoping for 450 on pump but didn't get it due to the previous issues. The turbo isn't even in it's efficiency range and i know this car has 10s in it on C16 race gas.

The only weight reduction i currently have on the car is a cf Oem hood, no ac, no emissions, no spare tire.

What about my setup would you add or change? The car is currently street driven and on 94 pump gas daily, race gas and high boost for track days only.

Sorry if this is hard to read, typed on iPhone, will edit if necessary.

 

[s366gsx]

that .55 a/r bolt on housing isn't a restriction. It makes for more usable/streetable power. I have a BEP S366 in the same housing and I'm going for 9's in a guttted 1g also. Yeah, I have an 82 lb/min turbo bolted to a stock manifold...although its ported to all hell. The only restriction I see is your intake manifold. The stock manifold makes power really fall off over 6k rpms. Expecially if you're on stock TB...forget it. Make sure you have very free flowing exhaust with that turbine housing also. I did side exit straight 3".

 

[Archer Fabrications]

that .55 a/r bolt on housing isn't a restriction. It makes for more usable/streetable power. I have a BEP S366 in the same housing and I'm going for 9's in a guttted 1g also. Yeah, I have an 82 lb/min turbo bolted to a stock manifold...although its ported to all hell. The only restriction I see is your intake manifold. The stock manifold makes power really fall off over 6k rpms. Expecially if you're on stock TB...forget it. Make sure you have very free flowing exhaust with that turbine housing also. I did side exit straight 3".

Hey man thanks for the response. The bolt on housing isn't gonna make it easy though. The HX40 has seen something like 85lb a min at 44psi i believe on the T3 housing. Justin, correct me if i'm wrong.I've been running the .55 BEP housing for quite some time now and i think it is really a restriction on pump gas. Although the goal wont be made on pump gas, i still think a larger hot side would make for easier power and Talon dave would agree. I have a stock 1g TB I forgot to add that in there, that would have to be changed with the intake manifold any sugguestion on which TB would be best?. Thanks for the suggestion. I would do side exit if it wasn't also a street car. My exhaust is a catless 3" back so it shouldn't be a problem. If it is ill run open DP at the track and sound like a dump truck.

 

[s366gsx]

Hey man thanks for the response. The bolt on housing isn't gonna make it easy though. the HX40 has seen something like 85lb a min at 44psi i believe on the T3 housing. Justin, correct me if i'm wrong. I have a stock 1g TB I forgot to add that in there, that would have to be changed with the intake manifold any sugguestion on which TB would be best?. Thanks for the suggestion. I would do side exit if it wasn't also a street car. My exhaust is a catless 3" back so it shouldn't be a problem. If it is ill run open DP at the track and sound like a dump truck.

No HX40 can hit 85 lb/min . I don't even think the batmowheels can do that. I personally am running an Infiniti Q45 90mm throttle body. Paid $100 shipped for an oem reliable massive tb . I have a custom made sheet metal intake, its almost too big for what I'm doing, but it was a steal. If I were in your shoes I'd pick up a used JMF drag or race manifold and like a 75mm mustang tb. It all depends what you want. I went with the biggest and baddest but it ended up the cheapest .

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

Hey man thanks for the response. The bolt on housing isn't gonna make it easy though. The HX40 has seen something like 85lb a min at 44psi i believe on the T3 housing. Justin, correct me if i'm wrong.I've been running the .55 BEP housing for quite some time now and i think it is really a restriction on pump gas. Although the goal wont be made on pump gas, i still think a larger hot side would make for easier power and Talon dave would agree. I have a stock 1g TB I forgot to add that in there, that would have to be changed with the intake manifold any sugguestion on which TB would be best?. Thanks for the suggestion. I would do side exit if it wasn't also a street car. My exhaust is a catless 3" back so it shouldn't be a problem. If it is ill run open DP at the track and sound like a dump truck.

You are about 16lbs/min higher than what even the Pro 40 is good for, in any housing. Thats approaching the max flow for a standard HX52

Larger turbine housing will make it easier to make power.

You don't have to go to a bigger TB wouldnt hurt though, a manifold intended for a power curve extending beyond stock redline is a must though.. Magnus cast intake, JMFab Race, etc.

 

[Archer Fabrications]

No HX40 can hit 85 lb/min . I don't even think the batmowheels can do that. I personally am running an Infiniti Q45 90mm throttle body. Paid $100 shipped for an oem reliable massive tb . I have a custom made sheet metal intake, its almost too big for what I'm doing, but it was a steal. If I were in your shoes I'd pick up a used JMF drag or race manifold and like a 75mm mustang tb. It all depends what you want. I went with the biggest and baddest but it ended up the cheapest .

I know the published flow is 69lb a min in it's efficiency range but Ive been told there was someone logging 80+lb a min at 44psi with the 6 blade billet HX40. not many people go up to that high boost on this turbo so i believe its very possible. ill accept being wrong when justin corrects me

Mustang TB, good call honestly didnt even cross my mind to go junk yard hunting for high HP NA cars' Throttle bodies . Magnus is actually only 40 minutes away from me and i have to go there to get the DG coilovers setup anyway, i dont have any of the tools to do a suspension swap with me, so maybe ill see if they can hook me up on a Intake manifold, or even maybe someday make my own if they ever hired me ( im going to school for welding, and brought my miller 180 Tig up to canada with me )

 

[s366gsx]

BTW, I believe KP has the bolt on hx40 record, like 10.8 in the 1/4 . You definetly have alot of seat time ahead of you. Driver mod is one of the most important parts of your setup. Theres people running 10's with 16g's, and then theres people that can't get in the 9's with t67's .

You are about 16lbs/min higher than what even the Pro 40 is good for, in any housing. Thats approaching the max flow for a standard HX52

Larger turbine housing will make it easier to make power.

You don't have to go to a bigger TB wouldnt hurt though, a manifold intended for a power curve extending beyond stock redline is a must though.. Magnus cast intake, JMFab Race, etc.

My turbo outlet is 3", so I ran 3" intercooler piping on both sides, so I figured a 3.5" throttle body wouldn't be a bad idea. I see people running 3" cold pipes to a stock TB....just looks bottlenecked

 

[Archer Fabrications]

BTW, I believe KP has the bolt on hx40 record, like 10.8 in the 1/4 . You definetly have alot of seat time ahead of you. Driver mod is one of the most important parts of your setup. Theres people running 10's with 16g's, and then theres people that can't get in the 9's with t67's .

10s on a 16g requires some crazy ass tuning that i haven't got the ability to do. I agree seat time, but i don't think i'm too bad for what i have hit on street tires. Those people also have hoosiers and nitrous, if no nitrous, they have other tricks up their sleeve.

Point of this thread was to find out from those who are currently running 9s to critique my setup and tell me if something in my list would be better complimented by something else. or to be added to. Tuning is everything.. i mean EVERYTING and ive been having timing issues since day 1 I plan to have it tuned at Magnus for power to sort that out, ive also never even had racegas in this car....Yet.

I'm not looking for the HX40 record, I'm not looking for the bolt on HX40 record. Talon dave will always be way ahead of me as far as the track times on this turbo. My only goal is to hit a 9.9 so i can stop modding and just only have to worry about maintaining it. Obviously there are other things to consider like safety equip that i haven't even begun to look at buying yet.

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

Being told, and then seeing it are two different things.

You're the same person who stated on the Link forums that you were told your airflow was off during the dyno tuning, and then tried to tell us here (in justin's thread) that you were picking up 150whp worth of airflow from a 5psi bump on a 60mm turbo

From Tuners:

I didn't dyno at 27 psi, see like 42lb a min at 22psi and 59 lb a min at 27 psi. Haven't even tried going past 27 yet. I was saying "also" to add to my other response.

I didn't dyno at 27 psi, see like 42lb a min at 22psi and 59 lb a min at 27 psi. Haven't even tried going past 27 yet. I was saying "also" to add to my other response.

Now from the Link forums:

well i can't look at the log on my phone but you gotta be macing those injectors to hell. on my 1000s i was seeing. 92% duty cycle at 27psi. hows 30 feel? ( we got the same turbo)

edit: just saw your on e85, you have to be killing those things man I'm gonna check the log in an hr and give you my opinion

you might have better luck with things switching to speed density i find it much easier to tune also. what version of link is this? theres no DA in this log? and i cant find your wideband id displayed values. you must not be capturing it yet?

your boost is decreasing as rpm increases and your airflow is only at 44lb a min... you must have a HUGE boost leak. i am flowing 59lb a min at 26 psi on my 7 blade full boost at 4300.

i take back my comment about your IDC's looks like they are under control, i dont know how on E85 but it looks good. your timing curve looks good. your fuel sucks. you are targeting an 8.7 on your whole pull, on E85 you should be targeting like 12:1. looks like your making some power. i tihink you need to fix your boost leaks and lean it out quite a bit. im not able to see your wideband for god knows why though.

my timing is way lower and im on 92 octane, but look at this to compare, i have the exact same turbo with the .55AR BEP. my boost flatlines and yours tapers off. you are going to be hauling ass once you fix those boost leaks.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
You are nowhere near 59 lb/min..your tune is not dialed in in a way that you can trust the Airflow numbers... your VE is very inflated in the SD table which is inflating your airflow numbers..

Your timing curve is so low you would likely make more power dropping boost and raising timing at this point...


Its unfair to compare airflow numbers unless both setups are tuned and calibrated the same way...and even so...airflow numbers can be taken with a grain of salt..

He could also simply have too much exhaust pressure and be blowing the wastegate open which will also cause boost to taper off BUT hes not logging map so you have no idea what Boost is doing...Boostest is a representation of the VE of the engine...

ALSO he's using V2 so theres some things like AFRatioEst that need to be configured manually where as they are now assumed values in V3... You should probably do a little more homework ... .




Ryan- I don't see your logged wideband, and not having a MAP sensor logged is also making it hard to see whats going on... For a typical E-85 car you can probably get away with a couple degrees more timing ..You should target a steady 11.8-12.0ish AFR on your wideband......

If it were me I'd work on getting boost to your desired level (HX40s like 30psi +) .. Get your Airfuel ratio steady 11.8-12.0 and then ramp the timing up a little more... Theres a couple guys in bolt on hx40s running high 10's ...so theres potential in that bolt on housing (moreso than an hx35 in a bolt on housing) ..

hummmm....... about the not trusting airflow... humm indeed... that was the first and only time that i got 59lb a min.. in 3rd gear. and the first time i REALLY pushed it... so i would think it would ve fairly accurate since most the time it shows 45-50lb a min

Seriously??

Your ve table is wayyy over 100% when its likely your engine isnt even operating at 100% efficiency(let alone more than 100% efficient ?!?!?) this factors directly into the airflow calculation your ve is likely in the 80-90% range where you are reading 59 lb/min not 108 or whatever it said (forgive me im on my cell) but the fact is your numbers are inflated heavily due to the way you have tuned the car .. There is no arguing that.

Im not trying to take the thread off topic i just wanted to bring to your attention that you cannot possibly compare airflow numbers based on the way you have tuned your car.

it's just what was neededto get the wb and fuek trims correct. i guess yournaugguesting i mess with global and rework everything?

I understand why you did it..but it IS inflating your Airflow numbers...

In all honesty what matters is that you're happy with your A/F ratios ..theres plenty of ways to get there...You can spend a day getting everything lining up properly and at the end of the day your car may run exactly the same...is that worth the time to you??? Maybe not.. To me though it would be as then the information in your logs will be as accurate as possible and when problems arise it is MUCH easier to trouble shoot ...

To get things lining up ..Yes it would mean mess with global and rework everything... There are a ton of articles and tools availble to help you do this relatively painlessly though..

btw aaron at englih didn't seem to care about the airflow matching?

The English guys didn't care about that when tuning my car either. I think it's okay, you just have to realize that you can't use the airflow readings for comparisons to others airflow readings because they're not accurate. And it skews other tuning numbers as well. It works, but you need to take this stuff into account when you're making adjustments on the tune.

It was even explained to you why. Stop posting bogus information and start learning.

You are going to have a hell of a time getting into the 9s if you don't want to learn.

Some of us have been doing this for a while.

SD allows for crazily inflated airflow figures.

BTW, I believe KP has the bolt on hx40 record, like 10.8 in the 1/4 . You definetly have alot of seat time ahead of you. Driver mod is one of the most important parts of your setup. Theres people running 10's with 16g's, and then theres people that can't get in the 9's with t67's .



My turbo outlet is 3", so I ran 3" intercooler piping on both sides, so I figured a 3.5" throttle body wouldn't be a bad idea. I see people running 3" cold pipes to a stock TB....just looks bottlenecked

I have 3" piping down to a ported 1G TB, I managed to push a calibrated and confirmed 67lbs/min through it regularly.. 70-90 and 80-100 times backed that up as well.

Pretty sure it will be a bottleneck eventually on the HX52 Pro I have now, but I am curious to find out when it becomes a real problem. Then I will also be stepping up to a 90mm TB, its just not in the funds at the moment while I am trying to finish setting up my required safety equipment and there are plenty of folks making as much or more than I was on a stock TB.

For his purposes the stock IM is going to be a bigger obstacle on the HX40, from my experience using a very similar turbo (59mm BW)

 

[Archer Fabrications]

went to english with these VE numbers like that and they didnt say it was inacurate. they even told me it didnt matter at all that it was over 100%, i never said i picked up 150 whp worth, I said that's the airflow i was seeing. I know what ricky said, and have talked to him about this also.

Half that shit you posted doesn't need to be in this thread.

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

see like 42lb a min at 22psi and 59 lb a min at 27 psi.

42lbs/min to ~59lbs/min from 5psi increase is what you posted. Those are your words.

That is 17lbs/min, and easily good for 150whp with a competent tune.

I didn't see 59-60lbs/min on a nearly identical turbo, with the same wheel aero/tech till 31-32psi boost on a cammed 2.0

You seem to like to take what you have read or been told (in some cases 2nd hand) and spin it as an understanding coming from experience. I see it when you comment on other peoples threads regarding results, logs or proposed setups.

 

[Archer Fabrications]

10s on a 16g requires some crazy ass tuning that i haven't got the ability to do. I agree seat time, but i don't think i'm too bad for what i have hit on street tires. Those people also have hoosiers and nitrous, if no nitrous, they have other tricks up their sleeve.

ahem...

42lbs/min to ~59lbs/min from 5psi increase is what you posted. Those are your words.

That is 17lbs/min, and easily good for 150whp with a competent tune.

I didn't see 59-60lbs/min on a nearly identical turbo, with the same wheel aero/tech till 31-32psi boost on a cammed 2.0

You seem to like to take what you have read and spin it as an understanding coming from experience. I see it when you comment on other peoples threads regarding results, logs or proposed setups.

looking at a log right now. At 23.9PSI i see47.6 lb a min this thread isnt about tuning, like i said, someone else is going to do that for me. No setup is the same. I'd be glad to email you the log if you have improvement suggestions, but like i said this isn't a tuning thread.

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

ahem...



looking at a log right now. At 23.9PSI i see47.6 lb a min this thread isnt about tuning, like i said, someone else is going to do that for me. No setup is the same.

I have had easily two dozen setups among my dsms, I am more than familiar that each setup will be different, but that doesn't mean some aren't comparable. In this case one of my previous setups and your current setup are very similar.

And turbos of near the same size, with the same housings are going to perform the in a fairly comparable fashion.

You want to post that log? I'd be curious to see this logs VE/DA tables vs the one you posted on link forums around the time of your dyno.

And now your saying 47.6lbs/min @ 23.9psi, or a 1.9 psi boost increase (compared to your previous 42lbs/min @ 22psi post) yielding almost 6lbs/min bump is also too great for a turbo that size, maybe a GT4202/HX52/S472 sized turbo.

Your VE has to be way off. There is a reason you are asking for advice, some of it will be stuff you don't want to hear, but that doesn't mean it won't be helpful.

 

[Archer Fabrications]

I didn't say you were wrong or anything like that, didn't call you stupid or say you didn't have experience. i said id email it to you, or i can post it in another thread, but again, this isn't the place for that. PM me your email and ill send it your way, the MAX VE is at 105 in the 5500-6k rpm range. and yes boost est is off a little, if you have suggestions on tuning we can take it up through PM or email, not here. im not claiming outrageous numbers, im just saying what i see with how it's setup. and english racing was the one to tune it last ive been tweeking ever since. they even targed a 12:1 and i think thats crazy on pump. currently i sit at 11.7 max lean

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

You got PM

And one thing you can do that would be very helpful when trying to dial in your SD that I use for myself is to use an Evo 8 MAS. You can get them for cheap and while they look like a bottle neck in front of a 4" turbo inlet they will help you calibrate your airflow very quickly.

It will not be spot on right away, but it directly meters the air and lets you get your fuel dialed in too. Use a conservative timing scheme during this period.

Then, when you take the MAS off and switch back to using solely the MAP/IAT in Link you will lean out a bit as you have removed the slight restriction the MAS caused and its just as simple as enriching the mixture by the percentage difference in AFR actual vs Target with changes to the corresponding cells on the VE table.

 

[Archer Fabrications]

You got PM

And one thing you can do that would be very helpful when trying to dial in your SD that I use for myself is to use an Evo 8 MAS. You can get them for cheap and while they look like a bottle neck in front of a 4" turbo inlet they will help you calibrate your airflow very quickly.

It will not be spot on right away, but it directly meters the air and lets you get your fuel dialed in too. Use a conservative timing scheme during this period.

Then, when you take the MAS off and switch back to using solely the MAP/IAT in Link you will lean out a bit as you have removed the slight restriction the MAS caused and its just as simple as enriching the mixture by the percentage difference in AFR actual vs Target with changes to the corresponding cells on the VE table.

can you email me one of your logs?

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

I'm looking to see if I have one as we speak, I no longer have the netbook (crappy Toshiba 10" - HDD failure) I was using in 2010-early 2011 when I was running the S200sx.. sometimes I find them saved on a thumbdrive though. Hoping theres one in my desk at home if I can't find one from a post here, or saved to a fileshare online.

My VE will be off some from yours due to your cam gear issue and the BC272s vs the custom grind "274" I was running at the time. Shouldn't be huge though. So it wouldnt be a direct download for you, as I'm sure you know.

Even then though, I had multiple turbine housings and exhaust manifold combinations so it will be tough to tell off hand which hotside combo I had just by the log. That changed VE considerably as well.

I was able to max the compressor in the .55 bolt on though, it just wasn't super efficient

 

[Archer Fabrications]

I'm looking to see if I have one as we speak, I no longer have the netbook (crappy Toshiba 10" - HDD failure) I was using in 2010-early 2011 when I was running the S200sx.. sometimes I find them saved on a thumbdrive though. Hoping theres one in my desk at home if I can't find one from a post here, or saved to a fileshare online.

My VE will be off some from yours due to your cam gear issue and the BC272s vs the custom grind "274" I was running at the time. Shouldn't be huge though. So it wouldnt be a direct download for you, as I'm sure you know.

Even then though, I had multiple turbine housings and exhaust manifold combinations so it will be tough to tell off hand which hotside combo I had just by the log. That changed VE considerably as well.

I was able to max the compressor in the .55 bolt on though, it just wasn't super efficient

I don't have any timing or cam issues, just timing advance issues. all mechanical stuff was remedied. And i know, i just wanted to see how your stuff lined up.

anyway, back to thread topic, anyone else have any sugguestions on my mechanical setup to get me to low 10s? or even 9s with weight reduction? am i almost there as far as what i posted? or are there any other good tricks to follow.

Also, for you 2g guys, what do you remove for weight reduction there really isn't much unless is start removing it by the gram.

 

[kp116]

Unless you have everything perfect airflow readings won't be accurate. I remember logging 70lbs/min with my bolt on hx40 but there was no way in hell I was actually flowing that much air. If you plan on sticking with that housing my set up performed best on the stock intake and when I had bc 272's. Later on on that set up and switched to a jmf smim and kelford 272's and I lost 5mph on the top end. That bolt on housing doesn't like to flow good up top and you will need to make most of your power midrange. My hx40 set up just had a fp manifold and bc 272's. I trapped 134mph on 33psi and after putting the smim and kelford 272's it was struggling to trap 130mph on even more boost.

 

[Archer Fabrications]

Interesting, so you lost mph by switching to smim, which one did you choose? I have a dnp tubular manifold. Are you suggesting i keep the stock intake for a little longer? My setup is good for 600 awhp i just haven't pushed it that far yet. I need better tuning

Maybe the kelfords aren't as good as the bcs?? I don't like the bcs and woul like hks 272/272 or gsc s2's 274/274

 

[Archer Fabrications]

Ive been trying to see if ricky can tune me but hes been really busy, i know he would do a great job calibrating everything

 

[kp116]

I'm not saying bc's are better because clearly they arent but on that hx40 set up with a small housing isn't going to flow goodup top. Obviously the stock intake and my bcs 272s were more efficient on my hx40 with that small housing because those parts worked nicely together to make all the power in the midrange. When I switched over to the larger cams and smim, those parts are more efficient at higher rpms but the hx40 choked at higher rpm because of the small housing. It would be the same principle as using a large smim with 288 cams on a 16g set up. It would be useless.

 

[bastarddsm]

How in the hell did that thing go 6.8 in the 1/8..... That's like at 10.80 or better. How many mph is that?

 

[slow91]

I don't think you transmission will hold up, I ran a 6.6@109 with the evo3 tranny which is the strongest gearset(stockwise). I sheared 3rd gear off so u may wanna think bout auto or dogbox. Just a suggestion

How in the hell did that thing go 6.8 in the 1/8..... That's like at 10.80 or better. How many mph is that?

I think he ran a 6.8 in 550 ft. At least he stated that in parentheses

 

[Archer Fabrications]

Yeah the claimed 1/8th track called evergreen speedway is only a 550 ft track. They lie when they advertise it. Why do you sound so surprised though?

The shep stage 3 only has an evo3 first,
2nd 3rd and 4th are shep spec hardened gears. It *might* hold, i already blew the center diff once. Trevor at shep said long as idont shift at 9k rpm without double synchros i should be able to hit my goal with it. I think i have the slip copied somewhere here. I don't know the mph off the top of my head inthink it was around 80 mph so a real 1/8th i would have had 100 feet to go. How evergreen isnset up is you race down the straight side of an oval track. It's quite terrable. The first two weeks i thought i actually ran a 6.8 but coukdent understand why my mph was so low,
The logs showed higher mph top, it's just a shotty track. Only went there one day.