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help. horrific knock after timing belt change

Posted by wolf alchemy, Nov 8, 2014

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  1. wolf alchemy

    wolf alchemy Proven Member

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    Also someone yelled at me for posting in the noob area, and said to post here and I have no idea where to post after reading "All non-tech and non-DSM related discussions. Read the Forum Guidelines. Play nice or get booted!" And the cars timing wouldn't climb at all due to the knock. So I pulled over and cranked it by only turning the key to start for a half second till I got the marks as close as possible and it looked like it was done proerly on the cams. But after doing that. No knock. Absolutely gone. Except the normal random knock I usually see.
     

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  2. wolf alchemy

    wolf alchemy Proven Member

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    Before timing. There was usually 1-7 on a 10 mile drive. Occasionally one spike up to 40 knocks. But after I left the shop i was watching my 1glink logger, and I'd say in 6 miles I had well over 200 knocks and they only dissapeared when there was no throttle. Worse as throttle was raised.[DOUBLEPOST=1415518009][/DOUBLEPOST]So I pulled over and popped the hood and spun the throttle plate to give it gas. Only thing I heard was the throwout bearing I think. Turned it off and kept turning the engine without starting it to see if can gears were lined up. It looked like they were. Couldn't get it perfect, but close enough. Started it and drove for 20 miles no high knock. Tonight though it seems the knock is happening more and into higher numbers.[DOUBLEPOST=1415518132][/DOUBLEPOST]Lastly this is my first turbo car and I do know what knock is. Just no idea what to do.......and just remembered. My timing was doing the opposite of my rpms for awhile. When I let off the gas the timing went higher. Gave it gas and the timing went down. Should I take it back to the shop?
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2014

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  3. Dsmkauai

    Dsmkauai Proven Member

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    Pretty sure you messed somthing up internally bro or with the timing job!:( That much knock means your most likely leaned out also, and that can start melting things if your not carful. You need to verify base timing 100%! Not just guessing and saying I think its close. Do it right bro, take the time to properly line them up and check it. Sounds like you don't have the supporting mods needed to run as hard as you are! Turn the boost down! Have you checked the knock sensor yet? Make sure it's in perfect working order? Can you post some of you logs? Stop driving the car you are destroying it bro! Spikes up to 40* knock and then you say well over 200*!!! Better hope it's phantom! Car must be a pig to drive running like that, timing must be in the negative LOL!! id be tuning out 7*knock bro LOL!
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2014

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  4. wolf alchemy

    wolf alchemy Proven Member

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    Um. My town shop did it. I would never touch timing work unless it was with a sh**ty car.
     

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  5. wrencher

    wrencher Proven Member

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    Need to line it up & make sure it's dead on with the timing belt timing.
    That said, I seen your prior timing belt. It was coming apart, glad you took my advise & got it taken care of.
    Now if the t-belt is correct, that don't mean the the CAS/base timing is adjusted properly. Who knows where it is or was with that beat up belt & prior owner.

    BTW what are you using to determine active knock/knock retard?
     
  6. wolf alchemy

    wolf alchemy Proven Member

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    1glink. The palm data logger. I know it tops out at 49 but I was hitting that a lot.[DOUBLEPOST=1415548067][/DOUBLEPOST]
    I was planning on calling you about it but forgot to last night before work. Lol[DOUBLEPOST=1415548280][/DOUBLEPOST]Also I noticed when I give it gas the timing would retard when there's no knock. And when I let off the gas the timing would rise. If this helps.
     

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  7. pauleyman

    pauleyman DSM Wiseman

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    There is no almost right. Car should run exactly the same with a new belt. Check the marks. The cas should not be messef with during a belt change
     

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  8. wolf alchemy

    wolf alchemy Proven Member

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    Well it never did any of this before the belt change. I run the logger once to three times a week
     

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  9. pauleyman

    pauleyman DSM Wiseman

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    Unless the belt wss wrong to begin with it should be the same. Check the marks.
     

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  10. wolf alchemy

    wolf alchemy Proven Member

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    Isn't timing something you should always do after changing the timing belt. I feel like that is the normal thing to do.
     

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  11. pauleyman

    pauleyman DSM Wiseman

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    No. Ignition timing has nothing to do with mechanical timing.[DOUBLEPOST=1415553911][/DOUBLEPOST]Check the marks.
     

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  12. wolf alchemy

    wolf alchemy Proven Member

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    I know. Thats what I'm talking about. The mechanical timing.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2014

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  13. LandoAWD

    LandoAWD Retired

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    Bro, this should be in tech, bro.
     
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  14. MJcanada

    MJcanada Proven Member

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    First chance you get check your mechanical timing. Does your car idle normal? Visually check to see if your knock sensor is oozing or not. If it drove in the shop fine but not out, something is likely wrong with something they touched. Timing will raise all the time when you let off the gas if its showing 10* knock or 0. Your changing timing table cells.
     

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  15. wolf alchemy

    wolf alchemy Proven Member

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    Thank you. That answers the other question. Is there even a post of where to post everything? Obviously 420A engine stuff goes into the 420A area, but I don't know where anything for DSM goes. I already tried putting something in what seemed like the correct area. But it was full of walkthroughs. WTF[DOUBLEPOST=1415631237][/DOUBLEPOST]
    I suppose the only way to do that is unplug spark plugs and roll the car in gear till ticks on cam gears line up. I'll find out where my knock sensor is, and what are timing table cells?
     

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  16. MJcanada

    MJcanada Proven Member

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    You just roll it around (edit: IE turn the crank by hand) till the timing marks line up on the cam on the compression stroke and then check the crank mark. If you have a lower timing cover, which you should (unless your willing to take it off which would make checking it more accurate), there should be a notch on your balancer that should line up with the tdc mark on the timing cover.

    Knock sensor is on the back of the block in the middle below the intake manifold.

    The cells inside the octane tables in the ecu program that determine what your timing should be based off of rpm range, engine load, coolant temp, intake temp, and knock sensor feedback.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2014

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  17. rough

    rough Proven Member

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    I hope you didn't take it to Mosers!!
    The only other shop I know of is that one across from the liquor store/library/post office "yellow barn building" Had a red vet sitting out front for a year LOL!
    Not sure on what quality of work they do, but I'd never step foot in Mosers!


    Those walk through's are the tech articles, you won't post there unless you are doing a tech article write up.

    You want this part of the forums.

    http://www.dsmtuners.com/categories/dsm-tech.3/

    You should be able to crank the engine by hand to get the cam gears to line up. You should never have to roll a car for anything.

    If you took it in, and it's not fixed, and payed for it, take it back and tell them to fix it right!
     

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  18. MJcanada

    MJcanada Proven Member

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    ROLL THE ENGINE. Means turn it over by hand not roll the dang car, jeez.
     

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  19. rough

    rough Proven Member

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    :D I've seen people do the craziest of things when told the simplest of ways!

    I knew what you were saying, but some might not! We do have newbies that browse these forums:)[DOUBLEPOST=1415636493][/DOUBLEPOST][QUOTE="wolf alchemy

    I suppose the only way to do that is unplug spark plugs and roll the car in gear till ticks on cam gears line up. I'll find out where my knock sensor is, and what are timing table cells?[/QUOTE]

    I was referring to his comment on rolling in gear, your comment came 3 mins before mine, so I didn't see it :)
     

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  20. Dsmkauai

    Dsmkauai Proven Member

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    Omg LOL! Put a wrench on the crank bolt and rotate motor clockwise till your marks line up and dowels are 12o'clock! If you take all 4 spark plugs out it makes it easier to do this, but you don't have to remove them to do it.
     

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  21. wolf alchemy

    wolf alchemy Proven Member

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    Um....your a little late. And it cost me 845.00 to have Moser's do it.[DOUBLEPOST=1415644885][/DOUBLEPOST]
    Thanks for the info[DOUBLEPOST=1415645005][/DOUBLEPOST]Last post. Car is back to knocking like normal. Had a in town tuning guy watch logger and he said timing was doing exactly what it should and I only had one high knock in the whole 3 mile drive. Easy and hard on throttle. Thanks guys for helping me like always.
     

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  22. rough

    rough Proven Member

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    Didn't see your previous thread that was in the wrong spot just seen this one and seen you posted it Saturday which Mosers sure as shiznit isn't open on Sunday :D
    We live we learn, hence why I say avoid that place like the plague! You'll have teenagers working on your car for top dollar prices.
    If you need anything done, go the extra few miles and head into Valparaiso, few decent shops there!

    What exactly did they do for 845$?
    For that price knock should have been fixed as well!
     

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  23. MJcanada

    MJcanada Proven Member

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    Book labor wise whole job is barely 6 hours. Which is about $450($75/hr) depending on labor rate. Without water pump timing kit retail is about $253.06 with tax. About $703.XX Water pump retail (if new pump with metal impeller) is another $105.76. Paying shops to do it is expensive. Sucks if its a crappy shop.
     

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  24. 91_talon_tsi_awd

    91_talon_tsi_awd Proven Member

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    BTW turning the crank with a 7/8 inch socket on a breaker bar has been my easiest way to line those cam gears up. I agree with the answers on they messed something up but I wouldn't touch it. Have then pick it up and fix the issue if they are reputable they wilfux what they messed up. I would never have a shop fix something then turn around and fix what they didn't do correctly its their problem.
     

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  25. rough

    rough Proven Member

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    I'm missing something, what did he even have done? I could see that price if I seen he had a pump replaced, ect.
    But just to adjust timing?
     

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