1G Grinding going into second, pops out of second and reverse if not forced into gear

[SeriozHenka]

I just picked up a 1990 Eagle Talon TSI AWD and I have been noticing a slight grinding when I shift into second too fast and also it popping out of second and reverse if I shift too quickly.

I can completely avoid the grinding if I hold the clutch down, and pull it into second as hard as I can and then let go, but if I shift like i would in any other gear it will grind just for a second and then find its way into gear. Sometimes if I don't pull it into 2nd as hard as I can it will pop out of second, making me have to put it back into second, and then it doesn't grind. Reverse doesnt grind, but if I don't put it into gear as hard as I can it will slip out back into neutral.

Both these gears once they are in work perfectly fine, they only pop out right after I shift into them, that could just be me not pushing it hard enough each time. I can avoid the grinding completely as long as I take my time shifting from first to second and don't beat on it.

The car has 85k miles and I don't believe has ever had a trans flush, which I will be doing soon. I'm pretty sure it's synchros, but I really hope it isn't because synchros are expensive to fix, so, if it's anything else, what do you guys think it could be? Thank you.

 

[1990TSIAWDTALON]

Check the transmission End Nuts. You will have to remove the end cover to check/service them. They tend to loosen up and sometimes fall off of the main and counter shafts. IIRC they are 32mm. One of my 90s had a loose end nut because they are 30 years old. If they are good your synchronizer is bad and the trans needs taken apart and repaired.
By "good", I mean still tight on the shafts.

 

[pauleyman]

What he said. You may also notice end play on the shafts. The only way you can check that if you take off the end case is to bolt the bearing plate back down. I do this with a box of washers so I can space out all the bolts. Play in the shafts (possible worn bearings) can keep you from going completely in gear. The fix is a rebuild. Expense is relative. You wanna play, you gotta pay. Labor and knowledge are the expensive parts. What is your skill level?

 

[SeriozHenka]

I've never done transmission work, just engine work like light upper builds and engine drops into cars, that's the most I know.

Seeing as how the car only has 85k miles on it, how long would you say I've got left before I need to do a full rebuild for the trans? As long as a match the rpms and don't shift too fast or too slow it's very smooth and an enjoyable experience.

I have yet to do a flush but I plan on doing that next week. The car has been sitting since 2018 and before that it was driven every summer since 1990. Bought it from the original owner, he did say he noticed the grinding beginning in 2017

 

[1990TSIAWDTALON]

Ok...first things....it needs its timing belt (and balance shaft belt) changed ASAP. Before they snap/break.
As far as the transmission, there are several much more educated on them than me but if you can turn a wrench and check a tolerance you could do it yourself. I was scared to tear mine apart but after changing synchronizers, it shifts smooth again and I suspect you have those issues and probably sloppy bearings. A shop can do it or you can.
Matching gears kinda points to the synchro. A flush won't hurt it but it's not going to help it unfortunately. Syncros "grip" the gear to slow it down, yours sound like they have wore out over time.

 

[SeriozHenka]

Timing belt was done at 75k, so we're good there. Either way I'm going to check it out when I replace the valve cover gasket because that's beginning to go bad. The trans fluid has never been flushed. How much do you think I'm looking at to get the parts to replace the synchronizers, and how much would I be looking to have a shop do it? I'm looking to enjoy summer with this car and take it on some trips, but I don't want to break a budget.

 

[92AWDHX40]

Well youll have to call around for prices if you can find certain parts.

 

[SeriozHenka]

Either way should I be okay with putting off doing the synchros as long as I treat it gently? I don't plan on daily driving this car, just a weekend car and maybe some trips over the summer, and I certainly don't plan on beating on it. I'm not the wealthiest individual and I don't necessarily have the time/money to spend on all the repairs as long as it can be put off without it damaging other parts of the car.

 

[92AWDHX40]

Eventually i would replace the parts, no its your transmission its going to have more issues if not fixed. Who knows what internal damage is already done, welcome to the world of owning such a car 30 years old and transmission parts are harder to find.

 

[Mech Addict]

Shift gingerly and you wont likely do too much damage. Of course, what’s the point of driving a sporty car like this if you have to baby the shifts. I sent mine in to a reputable shop (TRE) and I think it was between $2 and $3k. I think I priced parts for a full rebuild kit, and was about $1,500, if IIRC. I think it is handy to have a hydraulic press if you are doing bearings, though I may be wrong.
I did the removal & install myself. To pay someone for that, maybe another $1,200?

 

[pauleyman]

Shift gingerly and you wont likely do too much damage. Of course, what’s the point of driving a sporty car like this if you have to baby the shifts. I sent mine in to a reputable shop (TRE) and I think it was between $2 and $3k. I think I priced parts for a full rebuild kit, and was about $1,500, if IIRC. I think it is handy to have a hydraulic press if you are doing bearings, though I may be wrong.
I did the removal & install myself. To pay someone for that, maybe another $1,200?

A press isn't 100% necessary but it's a lot harder without it. The last full build I did parts were 1000$ and that's when parts were plentiful.

 

[dwb]

+1 for synchronizers. Pretty common issue. I daily drove with a bad 2nd gear synchro for over a year and someone else drove it like that before me. I never tore that trans apart to see the damage but it also kept chugging along.
That being said, with the scarcity of trans parts today I'd be inclined to rebuild it sooner rather than later. Before major damage and while some parts are still available.
How many years ago was 75k when the timing belt was replaced? Age can be a factor as much as mileage on these old cars. I'm jealous you have 200k less than mine.

 

[SeriozHenka]

+1 for synchronizers. Pretty common issue. I daily drove with a bad 2nd gear synchro for over a year and someone else drove it like that before me. I never tore that trans apart to see the damage but it also kept chugging along.
That being said, with the scarcity of trans parts today I'd be inclined to rebuild it sooner rather than later. Before major damage and while some parts are still available.
How many years ago was 75k when the timing belt was replaced? Age can be a factor as much as mileage on these old cars. I'm jealous you have 200k less than mine.

Timing belt was done in 2016 or 2017 I believe. I'm unsure if the balance shaft belt was done, but other than that everything is original and has been kept up to date up until 2018 repair and replacement wise. It sucks the 2nd gear synchro is going out, but it's nice to know I can still drive if I shift gently. When I go to do a trans flush I'm going to tear the cover off and check the integrity of both belts, if something is off I may just have them both replaced again (which will further hinder me from fixing the transmission) I don't plan on driving it more than 6000 miles a year, and most of that will be highway miles.

 

[Mech Addict]

Years, miles, and operator each takes its toll. Worn out tranny at 85k. Could be maintenance (fluid, adjustment) but more likely it’s the drivers’ style that accounts for it. This type of car inspires a bit of rowdiness. Mine was the same way. Did my tranny at 95k.
Assuming you adjusted clutch pedal and, visually checked for leaking lines, mc, slave, bled. You might check for clutch drag (level ground, press clutch fully, rev to 5k: creep?). You might check the shifter bushings (5 plastic inserts),cable adjustment, cable movement. Have someone operate the clutch while you observe the end of the clutch fork/slave rod movement, then post the pics on here.
The engines in these cars have proved stout and delightful to operate. The transmission, not quite.

 

[XC92]

FWIW I'm a relative newbie at working on cars and until a few years ago swapping the plugs and doing an oil change was about the most I could do. But a couple of years ago the trans on my '92 AWD Talon TSi manual was having issues similar to yours, some grinding but mostly popping out of 1st, and after checking with local and send-to shops and seeing how expensive it was I decided to fix it myself, and I did.

Took a few months between researching how to do it, tearing it apart, cleaning everything up, figuring out what was bad, getting the parts, getting more parts, most from Japan so that took a while, but I got it done and it's been running fine since, no issues at all. I also rebuilt the shifter, replaced the slave cylinder and swapped out a bunch of other parts.

If you have or can borrow, rent or get access to the right tools, and are handy and patient and have the time, you can do it yourself. There are videos and guides that show how it's done, plus the FSM is absolutely essential. It's also pretty satisfying, to have all those parts out then putting it all back together and having it work. The hardest part was actually getting it back on as that's always a challenge.

Btw based on your description it sounds like worn synchros, possibly a worn 1st/2nd hub & sleeve, and maybe a worn 1st/2nd fork. But you won't be able to know till you have it apart, then you get new parts to replace the worn ones, put it mostly back together, figure out the right shims you'll need, get those, put them on, put everything back together and you're back in business.

Also, the TB/BB have absolutely nothing to do with the trans, being on the opposite side of the engine, so having a look at those while you're working on the trans won't really save you much time. But if you do this, make sure to check the oil seals to see if any need replacing, and absolutely replace the BB if that wasn't done when the TB was replaced. I got kevlar ones for both, and replaced all the seals, along with the pulleys and tensioner, all OEM of course.

And, also something you can do yourself. We're talking quite a bit of money between both jobs, thousands.

 

[bastarddsm]

Sounds like the clutch isn't releasing, and the shifter cables need attention. I'd start there if I were you.

 

[XC92]

Sounds like the clutch isn't releasing, and the shifter cables need attention. I'd start there if I were you.

It's only happening with 2nd gear so it's probably internal to the trans.

 

[bastarddsm]

One of us builds these transmissions for a living, the other does not....

 

[XC92]

Ok, I'll take the bait. Seeing as how you're one of the world's leading experts on re-building DSM transmissions, how exactly are a clutch not releasing and shifter cable issues causing occasional hard shifting into 2nd and only 2nd gear and also sometimes popping out of 2nd and reverse?

Seriously, you said it was possibly that these were the reasons, so how exactly would that happen? I'm always looking to learn from the masters...

 

[bastarddsm]

1. Most people are very very poor at noticing and describing symptoms - it's possible that it does not go into any gear well.
2. Everyone of these cars ever has a poorly releasing clutch.
3. Most of them have a mismatch mess of cables/brackets/shifter
4. The clutch and cables need to be right or he will ruin a rebuilt transmission.
5. If the op can't get the clutch and cables right, or even verify that they are right, how do you think he will be able to rebuild a trans?
6. These things have to be soo worn and trashed to get pop outs from wear, it's not likely to happen in 85K

My personal car gets used up junk parts in the trans. Shit even a hoarder would throw away. They have to get really really bad to not shift and pop out.

When you go through a couple hundred of these and talk to the owners you'll start to understand. Just last night I went through a 2g fwd trans with a BROKEN IN HALF INPUT SHAFT. po said it was mint and just had a slight grind. I've seen them with the 1/2 slider with so much thrust wear first gear could almost get in the slider in neutral and it still drove ok.