2G Gear Faceplating

[Mham2k]

Question, I have a AWD trans with about 70k on it, car now has about 600 hp thinking about sending 3rd and 4th to liberty to get them face plated then getting a jack or tre rebuild kit and refreshing the trans.

Question:
I don't get the new slider, does this mean they can't add the dogs to our sliders? They have to use there own custom slider?

 

[92AWDHX40]

I would ask the companies you are curioius about sending it to, then they can tell you what they can or cant do, jacks is on here i would call them for options or email jon at tre..

 

[Mham2k]

I called Liberty but haven't gotten a call back yet, i know every one's really busy now. I will call around.

 

[twicks69]

You need to use their hub and slider, then clearance the dogs on 3rd and 4th gear to match the OD contour of their 3/4 slider and then clearance the 3/4 shift fork. You will need to convert to a 2-hole 3/4 fork (Magnus 3/4 billet, OEM 90-92.5 or modified Evo 3 3/4) and a 91.6-92.5 or modified evo 3 3/4 shift rail.

You will also need to extend the range of the shift rail detents to fully engage the dogs. You may need to clearance the selector cage as well as the 5th gear cover rail limiters (measuring after rail detents are clearanced and gearset test fitted and shifting).

I would recommend doing 1/2 gearset also, then detailing the gears and then shot peening and REM treatment of the gearset and shafts.

 

[smbgsx]

I would recommend doing 1/2 gearset also, then detailing the gears and then shot peening and REM treatment of the gearset and shafts.

Do you think there's really any real benefit to the REM treatment? Isn't that just an acid process to polish the component on like a melecular level?
I used to think REM was like nanopeening or WPC but I read a little bit about it and was surprised.
Seems like it's just a treatment to polish the surface/even out high & low spots. But I'd think
1) smoother finish means less lubricant retention. In my mind less lubrication is a bad think.
2) yea, smoother finish causes less friction, but the treatment doesn't really make it to the root of the gears anyway, and that's where a failure from fatigue or shock loading is likely to happen.

Im just curious because I'm about to decide on what how to detail my next gearset and I want to spend money where it counts. It seems like cryo treatment is a waste, unless it was a BRAND NEW gear set and wanted to help it settle before installation. Sort of like the difference between a seasoned/heat cycled block built for drag racing vs a brand new block. Core shift however slight would be present in the new block, but unless it was defective not on the used and remachined block.
So far shot peening and deburring are the only processed that seem to be worth anything.
Not trying to jack the thread, sorry. But I know you're knowledgeable in the dsm driveline area.

 

[Mham2k]

You need to use their hub and slider, then clearance the dogs on 3rd and 4th gear to match the OD contour of their 3/4 slider and then clearance the 3/4 shift fork. You will need to convert to a 2-hole 3/4 fork (Magnus 3/4 billet, OEM 90-92.5 or modified Evo 3 3/4) and a 91.6-92.5 or modified evo 3 3/4 shift rail.

You will also need to extend the range of the shift rail detents to fully engage the dogs. You may need to clearance the selector cage as well as the 5th gear cover rail limiters (measuring after rail detents are clearanced and gearset test fitted and shifting).

I would recommend doing 1/2 gearset also, then detailing the gears and then shot peening and REM treatment of the gearset and shafts.

Thanks, I may just send the tranny to someone and have it done. How much horsepower have face plates proven to hold on OEM gears? Any real data out there?

 

[bastarddsm]

Don't. All they do is just let you be more abusive to the trans and break 4th easy.

If you think you want a faceplates stuff, just save up for a dogbox. It's $800 to get a set faceplated, kill a couple gearsets and your getting up there in price.

 

[twicks69]

The face plates don't make the gear stronger, the gear still fails. The 3/4 hub and slider is more durable than the OEM part though. If you are looking for more durability you should seriously invest in a PPG gearset. Plain and simple.

 

[Mham2k]

Thanks, i thought using the surface area of the gear vs the teeth would help distribute the load a bit so that the gear could last longer. Sounds like that is a bad assumption.

 

[Mham2k]

Liberty just called me back and confirmed what you said above, they said it ads more shock to the trans so it could actually make the gear break faster.

 

[twicks69]

Correct.

I have had a face plated trans in my car for several years with street usage and a few track passes on low boost in the mid 700's range and it has survived, but I have not put anywhere near the abuse I once would do to transmissions because I wanted it to last. My trans is a bit unique though with rare goodies. It was all new components to start with as well. I am running an Evo 1 1st / 2nd, DSM 2nd, 91-92 DSM 3rd / 4th, Evo 1-3 5th gear. Along with a Ralliart clutch type front LSD differential, 4-Spider center differential with 300m output shaft and Adelia Magic clutch type coupler, Evo 1 forged shift rails, Evo 2 1-piece Steel forks, and then the gears were detailed, face plated, shot peened and REM treated, then clearanced (As I discussed in earlier post), modified rail detents, modified rail limiters and selector cage (as I mentioned earlier as well).

It shifts just as fast as a PPG dogbox, but is still a helical OEM style gearset so it WILL break sooner or later at these kind of power levels.

As for breaking due to the shock load of shifting.... well seriously, you should do an ignition cut with a strain gauge shift knob if you are worried about this, and run a KDN shifter if you are going to be serious. Shifting with the clutch is quick and easy. Shifting without the clutch is just as easy with zero effort. Flat shifting still is fast, but yes, then there is more load on the gear, hence why you should use an ignition cut to take the load off between shifts to reduce shock loading the transmission.

 

[Mham2k]

Correct.

I have had a face plated trans in my car for several years with street usage and a few track passes on low boost in the mid 700's range and it has survived, but I have not put anywhere near the abuse I once would do to transmissions because I wanted it to last. My trans is a bit unique though with rare goodies. It was all new components to start with as well. I am running an Evo 1 1st / 2nd, DSM 2nd, 91-92 DSM 3rd / 4th, Evo 1-3 5th gear. Along with a Ralliart clutch type front LSD differential, 4-Spider center differential with 300m output shaft and Adelia Magic clutch type coupler, Evo 1 forged shift rails, Evo 2 1-piece Steel forks, and then the gears were detailed, face plated, shot peened and REM treated, then clearanced (As I discussed in earlier post), modified rail detents, modified rail limiters and selector cage (as I mentioned earlier as well).

It shifts just as fast as a PPG dogbox, but is still a helical OEM style gearset so it WILL break sooner or later at these kind of power levels.

As for breaking due to the shock load of shifting.... well seriously, you should do an ignition cut with a strain gauge shift knob if you are worried about this, and run a KDN shifter if you are going to be serious. Shifting with the clutch is quick and easy. Shifting without the clutch is just as easy with zero effort. Flat shifting still is fast, but yes, then there is more load on the gear, hence why you should use an ignition cut to take the load off between shifts to reduce shock loading the transmission.

So hold on, i'm at 600hp your at 700, everyone has been telling me that my trans will break eventually as well, its got about 65k on it stock dsm AWD trans no EVO stuff in it.
My boost comes in progressively over the RPM vs hitting it all at once to keep the torque shock down.

What else can i do to make this trans last? Its not a DD i drive it 3 or 4 times a month.
When i drive it, I drive the heck out of it for maybe an hour then put it back.

If i do face plate and rebuild i should expect the same longevity of trans with a bit more fun in driving or LESS longevity of the trans?

 

[twicks69]

I don't think you would be getting any less longevity. You are already on the limit of what the stock center diff can handle as well as the stock 2g 3/4 hub and slider can handle before breaking.

Personally if it is still functioning, run it till it starts having problems and then do a PPG dogbox if you want longevity. Doing a face plated gearset or any servicing, you already are going to have the cost of doing forks, rail conversion, new bearings, needle bearings, non-reusables, and any upgrades as additional costs.

At 600 yes, you are on borrowed time.

 

[Mham2k]

I don't think you would be getting any less longevity. You are already on the limit of what the stock center diff can handle as well as the stock 2g 3/4 hub and slider can handle before breaking.

Personally if it is still functioning, run it till it starts having problems and then do a PPG dogbox if you want longevity. Doing a face plated gearset or any servicing, you already are going to have the cost of doing forks, rail conversion, new bearings, needle bearings, non-reusables, and any upgrades as additional costs.

At 600 yes, you are on borrowed time.

Gotcha, how about those manual trans coolers? Do they help at all, i have seen a few folks fab a pump and cooler up? I know its all borrowed time, i'm trying to borrow more time.

 

[twicks69]

If you were a track car, I would have a trans cooler with fluid pump and different venting setup on the transmission case.

With a street car, you won't see much benefit. You are better off giving cool down time between pulls and using Redline 75w140NS gear oil and doing regular fluid changes..

 

[Mham2k]

If you were a track car, I would have a trans cooler with fluid pump and different venting setup on the transmission case.

With a street car, you won't see much benefit. You are better off giving cool down time between pulls and using Redline 75w140NS gear oil and doing regular fluid changes..

Ok thx