fuel pump alone = more fuel?

[nazthug]

i keep hearing about how you should upgrade your pump at least if you do this and that for mods, whatever they may be

i come from some experience with fuel tuning on my previous car(focus with t3.04e turbo and pectel t2 standalone) and was just wondering.

If you are keeping the stock fpr and just upgrade to say a walbro 190(which i am getting) how does that give you more fuel?

Only thing i can think of is unless with more boost(say 18psi, with stock 1:1 rise) thats 18psi more fuel, so 43+18=61psi of pressure, and the only thing i can think of is that the stock pump cant supply that much? Is this why a bigger pump helps with fuel even if done by itself? Or do you guys mean upgrading the regulator just not saying it in your posts??

I just bought a FP big t28 and so far im stock for fuel, but i just ordered a walbro 190lph.

I also have an injen intake, rre uip, greddy type s, thermal 3" catback, 3" downpipe with 3" cat, evo3 o2 housing and POSSIBle might order an evo exhuast manifold as well

STILL on a stock SMIC

I know i will have to eventually get 550cc and an afc(big step down from using a standalone before, ) but whats this talk about the fuel pump being at least somewhat of an upgrade?

How much boost can i run on the t28 with just a pump???

Also, another question, how can i get to this lower, safer boost until i get some fuel?? I have a profec b right now with the above mod(stock t25) and just cant get it below 15psi and i have it directly hooked up, no bcs, just compressor nipple, greddy, greddy, wastegate

 

[Omega]

The 190 FP is the biggest FP you can put in the car without over running the stock FPR. If you put a bigger one in the FPR will not be able to hangle the added pressure and you will constantly be running rich. With the 190 you will get more fuel, and the stock system will be able to handle it. I believe that you can use a T28 with 550 injectors and the 190 FP with no problems. At the moment I am creeping to 22-24 PSI and the 190 is able to handle it... with my 16G

To run a large turbo at low boost you need a large wastegate. Even then if you have a high flowing exhaust you can have boost creep, or not be able to get the boost low enough.

The nice thing about the T25 is that it falls FLAT on its' face at high RPM's. So even if you can't get the boost down in the low/mid range, it will fall to ~9 PSI up top. When that happens the FP and injectors have no trouble supplying enough fuel. It's when you creep in the upper RPM range you have to be careful that the fuel system can keep up with the turbo.

Personally I don't recomend that you get any sort of turbo upgrade until you can supply enough fuel AND control it (AFC or the like). I don't care if you can get a good deal or not. If that is the case, buy the turbo and LEAVE IT alone.. polish it or something, just don't install it.

If anything by an AFC and a logger first. That way you can learn and tweak while the car is stock. If you can't get the settings right, set them all to zero and you are back to stock.

FYI if you keep the boost below 14psi with the T28 you can run everything as stock. Anything over that an you will need: AFC, 550's, FP.

 

[nazthug]

Originally posted by Omega
The 190 FP is the biggest FP you can put in the car without over running the stock FPR. If you put a bigger one in the FPR will not be able to hangle the added pressure and you will constantly be running rich. With the 190 you will get more fuel, and the stock system will be able to handle it. I believe that you can use a T28 with 550 injectors and the 190 FP with no problems. At the moment I am creeping to 22-24 PSI and the 190 is able to handle it... with my 16G

To run a large turbo at low boost you need a large wastegate. Even then if you have a high flowing exhaust you can have boost creep, or not be able to get the boost low enough.

The nice thing about the T25 is that it falls FLAT on its' face at high RPM's. So even if you can't get the boost down in the low/mid range, it will fall to ~9 PSI up top. When that happens the FP and injectors have no trouble supplying enough fuel. It's when you creep in the upper RPM range you have to be careful that the fuel system can keep up with the turbo.

Personally I don't recomend that you get any sort of turbo upgrade until you can supply enough fuel AND control it (AFC or the like). I don't care if you can get a good deal or not. If that is the case, buy the turbo and LEAVE IT alone.. polish it or something, just don't install it.

If anything by an AFC and a logger first. That way you can learn and tweak while the car is stock. If you can't get the settings right, set them all to zero and you are back to stock.

FYI if you keep the boost below 14psi with the T28 you can run everything as stock. Anything over that an you will need: AFC, 550's, FP.

dont need a logger, dont like tunning by knock, , just not used to ghetto tuning

I have a wideband that i've been using for over a year on my turbo focus and i just like tuning a car with what it is supposed to be tuned with.

Thats kinda what surprised me about most people tune on here, EGT's and knock counts, i dont know, kinda old school to me, you guy do realize there are very affordable widebands out now that work great right?

With a wideband, i can whip up a tune with an afc in no time i think, i've built full maps from scratch on my focus(and some other guys that wanted me to tune) in just hours, so the afc shouldnt be a problem

I have a obd2 scanner that i CAN watch timing with, but i just dont like tunning by egt's and knock by itself, i am too used to actually seeing the real a/f

11.5a/f wot all around and thats it, thats what i shoot for and thats what i plan on.

But i still havent found the answer, does the fuel pump by itself somehow allow more power/boost?

I just always hear guys saying, AT least get a fuel pump....well, what does that mean? Does the stock one just not keep up on the top end on higher boost???

 

[zac83]

its rated in LPH, If you only flow stock, then You're flowing about 130-150 LPH. If you upgrade to the 190 or 255, your flowing that many more liters per hour. Its just simple supply and demand. if your car dumps more fuel that the stock pump puts out, you need a bigger one. If you go with one thats too big (255) for the fuel pressure regulator, The pump supplies more fuel than the FPR orifice can handle and you 'deadhead' the system (spike the fuel pressure up WAY high and run 10-20% richer than you should).

 

[Omega]

I never said to tune for knock.. you can't anyway

I whole heartedly agree with the WB comment though... not many people actually want to go through with it though That is what I use. The WB logs AFR and RPM, I can then go back with my data logger to check timing just to make sure.

The AFC tuning is simple isn't it? Recently I have been playing around with a UTEC... talk about options!

 

[zac83]

UTEC =

Now if they'll ever get around to finsishing the SRT4 version, so they can make the evo 8 version so they can make the supra version so they can then MAYBE make the 2g version... so MAYBE MAYBE they'll make a 1g version or i can just swap my 1g to a 2g harness.... get what im saying

 

[RiceKiller_TSi]

Just strolled through here and wanted to know what kind of output does the big T28 support... in HP exactly? That turbo comparable to the Big 16 G?

 

[nazthug]

i got the fp big t28, ported, along with an evo manifold, and evo o2 housing.

Added with the rest of my bolt ons, and fuel, im only a better intercooler away from 300whp

I wouldnt want to push the t28 past 300whp anyways.

Im at 215whp right now with the stock t25 and supporting mods, at about 16->12psi with 93 octane(91+xylene mix, )

I guess i will have to resort to the afc for tuning, but im used to having a nice standalone with all the toys.

I STILL DONT GET THE FUEL PUMP MOD by itself

SURE more LPH, BUT BUT BUT with a stock FPR its still limitting the fuel flow into the injectors isnt it, you can have a 100000lph pump on there(given the fpr keeps the same pressure) its still only going to flow as much as it lets it

The only reason i see people saying just upgrade the pump at least(qoute unqoute) is that the stock one cant support the increase fuel psi at higher boost(if its 1:1, then at 18 psi, youre asking for about 61psi of fuel) which maybe the stock one cant supply

thats the only reason i see a fuel pump ON ITS OWN supplying more fuel without any other mods, unless youre fpr is getting overdriven with the pump and it supplys more fuel, but damn, talk about ghetto

Im used to controlling fuel pump pulsewidth with my standalone(the focus has returnless fuel) so no fpr or any of that stuff.

I controlled timing, injector pulsewidth and fuel pump voltage and all that, it was great.

Ran 13.7@106MPH, , no traciton.

My goal is to dip 12's on nice drag radials with the gst, without a FMIC, i dont want to go that far, i will however upgarde the side mount, with either a dejon or adfx.

550cc and afc is on the way, as well as a walbro 190lph

 

[jpolizo]

Hey man, you got it. Unless the stock fuel pump runs out of capacity; adding a bigger pump doesn't get you squat (except it's louder).

One thing to note is that there is some information that the stock wiring on the stock pump is actually a problem (Road Race has a web page describing this: http://www.roadraceengineering.com/fuelpumptechtip.htm). So, the stock pump can run out of capacity earlier than might seem obvious. Some folks don't believe this; I did, so I rewired mine.

 

[workin_on_it]

don't all fuel pumps pump out a certain volume(lph) at a certain pressure(psi)?
therefore if the stock fuel pump max's out at 150lph at 50 psi(not real #'s) then the walbro will max out at 190 at that same pressure therefore giving a greater volume of fuel at a givin pressure (not sure if this is true so don't quote me on this). this makes sense in my mind so please prove me wrong.

 

[nazthug]

but lph doesnt mean anything other then capacity

at 50psi, the fuel at the rail is 50psi, regardless of whats pumping it(as long as its capable to hold 50psi)

lph cant affect that in any other way, unless you run bigger fuel lines or something

stock for stock, a bigger pump, at the same psi, just cant pump more fuel

im just hoping tht with more boost, the stock one cant keep up, otherwise, it doesnt make much sense

 

[ShapeGSX]

Originally posted by nazthug
dont need a logger, dont like tunning by knock, , just not used to ghetto tuning

I have a wideband that i've been using for over a year on my turbo focus and i just like tuning a car with what it is supposed to be tuned with.

Thats kinda what surprised me about most people tune on here, EGT's and knock counts, i dont know, kinda old school to me, you guy do realize there are very affordable widebands out now that work great right?

Just because your air to fuel ratio is at a certain level does NOT mean that your engine won't knock. Knock is very sensitive to timing changes. And tuning your timing advance can give you great power and torque gains.

 

[heavyD]

Originally posted by nazthug
but lph doesnt mean anything other then capacity

at 50psi, the fuel at the rail is 50psi, regardless of whats pumping it(as long as its capable to hold 50psi)

lph cant affect that in any other way, unless you run bigger fuel lines or something

stock for stock, a bigger pump, at the same psi, just cant pump more fuel

im just hoping tht with more boost, the stock one cant keep up, otherwise, it doesnt make much sense

It's great to hear from someone new. I'm so tired of people saying "you'll need a larger fuel pump if you add this" or "that fuel pump will overrun the stock fpr". Alot of people say that because that's what they have heard over & over and there is no ducumented proof to support the claims. When I got my FPT28 I purchased a Walbro 255 lph fuel pump because of these "theories". Well the only thing I gained was noise. The car runs EXACTLY the same. The stock fuel pump can handle a T28 turbo and no a 255 lph will not overrun the stock pfr. I went through this in my years in the Honda crowd "if you install the AEM cold air intake, you will need our billet AEM fpr to keep your car from running too lean". Please! All automobiles are manufactured with safety factors in the equipment. Did anyone care to check if a Lancer EVOIII came from the factory with a 255 lph fuel pump for its Big16G? Because it doesn't have or need a 255 lph pump.

 

[Omega]

You speak of knock as if us late 2G guys can actually view it. The only way I know I am knocking is if the ECU see's it and yanks masses of timing. I tune for ~12:1 AFR, log a run for timing and look for a nice curve.

Unfortunitely timing changes can't be made with an AFC. Yes, being able to change them does't yeild the best results though.

 

[Omega]

heavyD:

Do you use the 255 HP or the standard version?

Out of curiousity.. what boost levels are you running?

 

[ShapeGSX]

Originally posted by Omega
You speak of knock as if us late 2G guys can actually view it. The only way I know I am knocking is if the ECU see's it and yanks masses of timing. I tune for ~12:1 AFR, log a run for timing and look for a nice curve.

Unfortunitely timing changes can't be made with an AFC. Yes, being able to change them does't yeild the best results though.

Get DSMLink. The AFC is a POS in comparison.

 

[RiceKiller_TSi]

Originally posted by heavyD
It's great to hear from someone new. I'm so tired of people saying "you'll need a larger fuel pump if you add this" or "that fuel pump will overrun the stock fpr". Alot of people say that because that's what they have heard over & over and there is no ducumented proof to support the claims. When I got my FPT28 I purchased a Walbro 255 lph fuel pump because of these "theories". Well the only thing I gained was noise. The car runs EXACTLY the same. The stock fuel pump can handle a T28 turbo and no a 255 lph will not overrun the stock pfr. I went through this in my years in the Honda crowd "if you install the AEM cold air intake, you will need our billet AEM fpr to keep your car from running too lean". Please! All automobiles are manufactured with safety factors in the equipment. Did anyone care to check if a Lancer EVOIII came from the factory with a 255 lph fuel pump for its Big16G? Because it doesn't have or need a 255 lph pump.

Some people have to learn the hard way that its better to be safe than sorry. Mitsubishi never built the EVO's for the average person to go out and "turn up the boost" therefore the margin of safety with the fuel pump is minimal. If they wanted for the EVO's to run higher boost than "stock" they would DEFINITELY have used a high output fuel pump. I've personally SEEN the effects of people who overboost on the stock fuel pump... and they didnt even have upgraded turbos. I friend of mine blew up his engine because he didnt know he was doing and boosted his 14b over 20. Better safe than sorry. Cant say it enough.

 

[kpt4321]

Originally posted by ShapeGSX
Just because your air to fuel ratio is at a certain level does NOT mean that your engine won't knock. Knock is very sensitive to timing changes. And tuning your timing advance can give you great power and torque gains.

Beat me to it.


It's a whole hell of a lot easier to find the optimum tune if you can see knock and timing, then it is to hope that they are ok since your A/F ratio is "good."

 

[nazthug]

obviously timing is important, you're telling a guy who made timing maps from scratch for a focus with cams, t3/04e stage 3, and a bunch of other stuff, so i know timing

for you guys its a bit different, because 99% of dsm owners have no control over timing, they just let the ecu handle it, which is fine to a certain point

i didnt have htat option because i didnt have as good of a ecu controlling timing, that was no timing pull under knock, etc

it was all custom timing maps


i dont think i need alot of timing control running a bt28 and shooting for about 250-280whp, the stock ecu can handle that just fine i think

i just wanted to clear up the fuel pump issue

i just dont see how a bigger pump puts out more fuel then the stock at the same fuel pressure at the rail, as long asa the stock one isnt falling back(not making the psi its supposed to)

DOES ANYONE know what the stock fuel pump can handle as far as psi go? WHen is it maxed out? If you run 20psi on a bt28, thats 63psi total at the rail(43+20) can the stock pump work that hard???

 

[nazthug]

obviously timing is important, you're telling a guy who made timing maps from scratch for a focus with cams, t3/04e stage 3, and a bunch of other stuff, so i know timing

for you guys its a bit different, because 99% of dsm owners have no control over timing, they just let the ecu handle it, which is fine to a certain point

i didnt have htat option because i didnt have as good of a ecu controlling timing, that was no timing pull under knock, etc

it was all custom timing maps


i dont think i need alot of timing control running a bt28 and shooting for about 250-280whp, the stock ecu can handle that just fine i think

i just wanted to clear up the fuel pump issue

i just dont see how a bigger pump puts out more fuel then the stock at the same fuel pressure at the rail, as long asa the stock one isnt falling back(not making the psi its supposed to)

DOES ANYONE know what the stock fuel pump can handle as far as psi go? WHen is it maxed out? If you run 20psi on a bt28, thats 63psi total at the rail(43+20) can the stock pump work that hard???

 

[heavyD]

Originally posted by Omega
heavyD:

Do you use the 255 HP or the standard version?

Out of curiousity.. what boost levels are you running?

255 lph regular pump. I am running 15 psi boost at the moment.

 

[Omega]

I believe that is where people make the mistake.. they buy the HP version and have problems.. but that is just my "internet opinion"

Why only 15psi? Do you still need the supporting mods or is that all you want to run.

 

[heavyD]

Originally posted by RiceKiller_TSi
Some people have to learn the hard way that its better to be safe than sorry. Mitsubishi never built the EVO's for the average person to go out and "turn up the boost" therefore the margin of safety with the fuel pump is minimal. If they wanted for the EVO's to run higher boost than "stock" they would DEFINITELY have used a high output fuel pump. I've personally SEEN the effects of people who overboost on the stock fuel pump... and they didnt even have upgraded turbos. I friend of mine blew up his engine because he didnt know he was doing and boosted his 14b over 20. Better safe than sorry. Cant say it enough.

I agree that the stock fuel system pump/injectors/etc. should be upgraded for over 20 psi but so should alot of other components. Once you go over 20 psi on stock internals, many things from internals/fuel system/air flow sensors/intercooler efficiency etc. are stretched to the limit. I don't think that the subject of this conversation pertained to boost levels that high.

 

[heavyD]

Originally posted by Omega
I believe that is where people make the mistake.. they buy the HP version and have problems.. but that is just my "internet opinion"

Why only 15psi? Do you still need the supporting mods or is that all you want to run.

We can get snow and cold here in the winter months so I only bring the Eclipse out when its clear. I'll have it out full time in the spring and will be doing serious tuning then.

 

[RiceKiller_TSi]

Originally posted by heavyD
I agree that the stock fuel system pump/injectors/etc. should be upgraded for over 20 psi but so should alot of other components. Once you go over 20 psi on stock internals, many things from internals/fuel system/air flow sensors/intercooler efficiency etc. are stretched to the limit. I don't think that the subject of this conversation pertained to boost levels that high.

The friend that blew up his engine overboosting past 20 psi was only an example of how important having fuel is. He ran his 14b "wide open" and his motor never stood a chance. BTW 20 psi is not really that high of a boost level to obtain... especially on stock internals [edit: with race gas]. You are correct in that supporting mods are needed to get there and an upgraded fuel pump is a start.