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FP Red quit his job after 3 years and 10000mls

Fuchsig

10+ Year Contributor
44
13
Jun 19, 2009
Near of Leipzig, Europe
Hey,

my FP Red said goodbye to me today. In germany so many people use to have problems with fp. I am surprised that i don't read about problems here. If it was new, my turbo has residual chips in the compressor cover from drilling the hole of the wastegate. A friend got the same chip problem with his green. I have pictures attached. Does anybody has an idea what's the reason for the damage? It's happend @7000rpm and 27psi.

Marcel

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1990TSIAWDTALON

Moderator
9,712
5,549
Nov 14, 2013
Independence, Kansas
OMG, You are almost as good at tearing them up as me....watching this to see what the outcome is.
Good Luck!
This USED to be a Holset HX40........it said goodbye to me a few years ago.
Marty
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Last edited:

DSSA

Supporting Vendor
645
463
Jul 26, 2002
Hatfield, Pennsylvania
I would say that at 3 years and 10,000 miles, it wasn't chips left over from FP machining a hole.

Best bet is to contact FP and most likely send it in for diagnostics.
 

JusMX141

Moderator
15,121
1,189
Dec 13, 2005
Greensburg, Pennsylvania
SO many issues it's nearly impossible to predict what happened first. Key pointers would be:

- The shaft broke at the step.
- The turbine wheel is missing a blade.
- There is notable turbine inducer damage which typically doesn't happen in situations where the turbine lost a blade as the blade would quickly exit given the load and direction of exhaust flow.

The compressor damage is clearly a result and not a cause. There is no evidence the compressor wheel contacted the housing prior to the failure, and with how low the blades are kinked it definitely happened after the shaft broke...had the unit ingested something during a pull, the compressor blades would be broken and not bent- so that damage was unloaded.

The next step would be to attempt to determine which of these events happened first. If I received this unit from a customer and were tearing it down, I'd look for key oil-related failure problems in the area of the turbine-side journal bearing, most-notably heat scoring which may have caused a large amount of shaft movement to occur rapidly. If that checks out OK and both bearings are moving freely in the bearing housing while not showing any evidence of oil contamination, I'd be looking at the turbine housing itself...did the turbine take on inducer damage that would've caused a massive amount of unbalance which led to the shaft breaking?



In my expert opinion judging purely from the photos AND assuming oiling was 100% correct...meaning the unit was being fed from the filter housing full-flow with a 4AN feed line as recommended by FP and the oil was clean with zero contamination evidence- the shaft broke at the step and caused the failure. This allowed the turbine to walk outward and strike the turbine housing, breaking the blade off....and also caused the compressor wheel to chatter off the housing and bend the blades at a low point, close to the hub.

Now...what can cause the shaft to break at the step? It's not an unbalance issue as those typically shear the shaft in a "twisting" motion directly behind the compressor wheel. Yours is a clean break and definitely happened at the step given the amount of thread exposed on the inlet side, so it's not balance-related. It can only be one of three things- either the shaft was over-torqued, it was simply a component failure, or you have a pretty major surge/overspeed issue. More than likely one of the first two as the latter would provide an external concern like audible noise or performance issues, but you're well out of warranty time and mileage so the manufacturer isn't likely to help you nor should they be obligated to.

I could build a CHRA for this unit that would *work*, although I can't get Genuine FP compressor wheels...the other issue is I don't ship outside the United States.
 

Fuchsig

10+ Year Contributor
44
13
Jun 19, 2009
Near of Leipzig, Europe
Thanks for answering,

I removed the shavings, but this is not the reason. I just wanted to say that this is no sign of quality.

The turbo gets his oil from filter housing. I am exchanging my oil every 2-3000mls. I attachend picture from the shaft, looks ok for me. The bearings are free.

I mailed fp but did not get an answer yet. I do not expect any warranty. I’m just ask myself whether fp builds quality. I am considering buying a kinugawa turbo.

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1990TSIAWDTALON

Moderator
9,712
5,549
Nov 14, 2013
Independence, Kansas
Buy a Jus Turbo's turbo. ;)
 

JusMX141

Moderator
15,121
1,189
Dec 13, 2005
Greensburg, Pennsylvania
The Taiwan companies (Kinugawa, Mamba, and Arashi) are basically selling all the same units with some minor differences in outer housings and/or actuators. Expect around the same lifespan...possibly less.

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Fuchsig

10+ Year Contributor
44
13
Jun 19, 2009
Near of Leipzig, Europe
I think it was my fault when I assembled the case because I did not press the snap ring in with a hammer like in the video from kinugawa (FP shows the same method at Facebook). There are two red springs in my forge wastegate (open at 16psi – without preload). When i got off the pedal, i guess the punch from the wastegate cracked the chra and the misfortune took it course (look at my video – the chra bumped into the compressor cover after closing the wastegate).

I ordered the new fp red uhf 57s. Unfortunately I have not been on a dyno so far. A comparison would have been interesting.

I am curious if the new one has chips in the cover again. I only noticed now that the compressor cover the waterline bumped.

Anyway, I am looking forward to my new turbo. The old one often made me smile.

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We're on Boost

15+ Year Contributor
1,602
430
Aug 25, 2007
Seattle area, Washington
I ordered the new fp red uhf 57s.

I will be interested in how you like the new FP RED UHF 57S for DSM. I think it should be good.

Did you check with FP to see if they still have specific motor oil recommendations to use with the journal bearing CHRA?
I kind of remember that their "Forced Performance Recommendations for Motor Oil" went out the window (no longer required) when they quit using steel against steel in the thrust bearing. They changed it so that one side is a proper bearing material. So now it's that material against steel, as it should be.
I haven't kept up with that though, so I'm not sure.
But I see that their link to "Forced Performance Recommendations for Motor Oil" goes nowhere now - "404 Page Not Found" haha very funny.
If you need a phone call with them to ask for more specific info about that, and it's not very workable from Germany and maybe language difference and so forth, let me know and I could call them with some questions if you want!

Gary
 
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1990TSIAWDTALON

Moderator
9,712
5,549
Nov 14, 2013
Independence, Kansas
Run ZZDP additive. It is specifically for high thrust and wear surfaces. I don't mean that as a cure (you need to assemble it all correct) but I do believe it helps anti-wear. Only an opinion.
 

We're on Boost

15+ Year Contributor
1,602
430
Aug 25, 2007
Seattle area, Washington
Yeah, the FP recommendations emphasized ZDDP and also kind of steered you towards higher viscosity such as 20w-50.

Turbo determining your oil viscosity is kind of tail wagging the dog though. It should be temperature and how your engine is built and used that determine viscosity, and the turbo should be able to get along with whatever oil viscosity is good for the engine.

I can't find the "Forced Performance Recommendations for Motor Oil" live anywhere on their web site, which makes me wonder if they don't think it's an issue with their turbos anymore.
But anyway, here is a copy of it as it was on their web site in 2017. You'll notice the date on it is 2010. It was written when they were still using a steel on steel thrust bearing.
 

Attachments

  • Forced Performance Recommendations for Motor Oil - from FP Black web page November 2017.pdf
    188.4 KB · Views: 7

1990TSIAWDTALON

Moderator
9,712
5,549
Nov 14, 2013
Independence, Kansas
The way I always looked at it was "it wasn't hurting anything" to run it, since I have journal bearing turbos.
 

JusMX141

Moderator
15,121
1,189
Dec 13, 2005
Greensburg, Pennsylvania
I think it was my fault when I assembled the case because I did not press the snap ring in with a hammer like in the video from kinugawa (FP shows the same method at Facebook). There are two red springs in my forge wastegate (open at 16psi – without preload). When i got off the pedal, i guess the punch from the wastegate cracked the chra and the misfortune took it course (look at my video – the chra bumped into the compressor cover after closing the wastegate).
Snap rings just don't blow off suddenly after 10,000 miles. There was an epidemic for a while with Evo compressor covers blowing off because the cover would rotate and load the locating pin under hard acceleration with rigid lower intercooler piping and bad engine mounts...this isn't an issue on DSM's because the FP DSM lineup does not utilize a locating pin. Your bearing housing is broken at the flange, but I believe that was a result of the turbo failure and not a cause.

If you're interested in parting with the dead outer housings and clamps and don't mind shipping to the United States, let me know. I don't want the actuator.
 
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