General Flying Banana has Start/Run issues

[ninjai_ruken]

Ok guys, I wasn't sure where to post this as of right now as the gremlins are still up in the air. So drink some coffee, Listen to some headbanging music...sit back and enjoy the read.

As a side note, I did do a search both in Google and Dsmtuners. While I found people with Similar Issues none of them where identical and the fixes applied I have already tried.

Spring 2016

I was prepping the Flying Banana for a mild season in Denver. A few open track days, a few NASA Events in the Denver region. Fresh Oil, Spark Plugs, Cleaned her up, Cleaned out the Fuel Cell and put new foam in it. Fresh VP 103 Octane Fuel. I started her up and she ran great, took her around the block "I have Montana Permanent Plates for the car" and the car was running like a beast. Sounded good, full WOT was good everything was fine. Pulled it into the garage and parked it for the night. A couple of days later I went to start the car and she would not run. I eventually tracked the problem down to a bad EPROM within the AEM Series 1 ECM. So I sent it off to be repaired, as a precaution I replaced the CAS and a few other sensors with new ones including a new IAC. I got my ECM back with documentation that they were able to save the tune. "Doesn't matter as I have the file anyways." I install the repaired ECU, as I'm sitting in the drivers seat pressing the start button she acts like she wants to start so I give it a little gas. Car starts, everything looks good on my gauges. While I have the gas pressed and the car is sitting at about 2k rpm it just shuts off. This symptom keeps going but at this point with school, family and preparing to move at the end of the year I throw some fuel stabilizer in the tank and pull the car cover over her.

Two weeks ago,

I recently moved to Indiana after Christmas in order to work for a Professional IMSA Race Team, I decide to go out and see if I can find out whats wrong with the flying banana. Same Symptoms so once again I check for Air, Fuel and Spark. I have Air, Spark and fuel pressure remains good. I haven't had the opportunity to do a Compression Test as I have not found my tool yet. I also cant find my damn COM Cable for my Series 1 ECM so I can connect to the laptop and see whats going on..."I'm really getting sick of this old Tech" As I previously stated the car runs with the throttle depressed but then just shuts off as if someone cuts all power. I understand there isn't a lot of information to go on, But at this point I'm about to strip the car completely down and rebuild it. I would like to cut costs by not buying a Series 2 but if I have to I will. I'm thinking about trying to find someone to lend me a Stock ECM and plug that in. See if she runs then. The problem is finding the time to get all of this done. As its the Race season and I'm busy like 24/7 any ideas helps guys

Ty McBride
Team Leader/Owner
McBride Motorsports

Mechanic/Crewman
LAP Motorsports

PS Mods if this is in the wrong section please move it. Thank you

Posted from HTC 10

 

[PlanZero]

I think you already answered your own question. Assuming you properly adjusted the CAS, You said the original problem was a bad ecu. You put it in and the car shut off. As you know by now having an extra ecu is never a bad thing, especially a stock backup for comparison. I realize a 90 ecu may be harder to come by and more expensive than say a non EPROM 2g ecu, but even if you have to buy one outright it's still good to have. Not to mention you could sell it quickly on classifieds or ebay and at least get your money back if it doesn't fix the problem. I'd try Steve Miller (miller import parts) or Rix racing (Dacowgod) first.

 

[ninjai_ruken]

I think you already answered your own question. You said the original problem was a bad ecu. You put it in and the car shut off. As you know by now having an extra ecu is never a bad thing, especially a stock backup for comparison. I realize a 90 ecu may be harder to come by and more expensive than say a non EPROM 2g ecu, but even if you have to buy one outright it's still good to have. Not to mention you could sell it quickly on classifieds and at least get your money back if it doesn't fix the problem. I'd try Steve Miller first. He may even lend you one.

It's possible the ECU is still bad, that's why Im on the hunt for a stock ECU. The company that repaired the ECU said they tested it and it tested fine. That doesn't mean something else took a crap though. I'm curious as to how they tested it. I'm going to swing by fry's and see if I can pick up a 9 pin COM Cable. At any rate, once I track the problem down I think a Series 2 AEM upgrade is unavoidable.

Ty McBride
Team Leader/Owner
McBride Motorsports

Mechanic/Crewman
LAP Motorsports

 

[SOADweskey]

Just a shot in the dark but I recently had a similar problem. My car would not idle at all unless I applied about 5% throttle. It turned out to be the plastic tip from my ISC somehow came off and was stuck in the throttle body.

 

[ninjai_ruken]

Just a shot in the dark but I recently had a similar problem. My car would not idle at all unless I applied about 5% throttle. It turned out to be the plastic tip from my ISC somehow came off and was stuck in the throttle body.

Ill give it a shot, I just replaced that before the ECU was fixed but it never hurts to check everything out. Ill let you know what I find, although I don't think this is the issue. While depressing the throttle the car just shuts off. It doesn't stumble and die, just cuts right out. But still its worth a shot.

Ty McBride
Team Leader/Owner
McBride Motorsports

Mechanic/Crewman
LAP Motorsports

 

[GST with PSI]

What are you doing with the car that you need a full standalone EMS? I'm not terribly familiar with the build, but unless the standalone is required for the way the car is currently configured, I'd ditch the AEM and move to ECMLink. And, if you're trying to cut costs, that's certainly a way to do so.

The support for ECMlink is vastly greater, and it will do 85% or better of what your standalone is able to do.

 

[ninjai_ruken]

What are you doing with the car that you need a full standalone EMS? I'm not terribly familiar with the build, but unless the standalone is required for the way the car is currently configured, I'd ditch the AEM and move to ECMLink. And, if you're trying to cut costs, that's certainly a way to do so.

The support for ECMlink is vastly greater, and it will do 85% or better of what your standalone is able to do.

Car runs in NASA SU Series along with some other stuff. I'm planning on running the Sandhillls Open Road Challenge next year. The car is a full on Race Car and was Greg Collier's old car with a fully built 6 Bolt. I am considering all my options at this point. As the car is getting a new facelift also. Thank you

Ty McBride
Team Leader/Owner
McBride Motorsports

Mechanic/Crewman
LAP Motorsports

 

[GST with PSI]

Car runs in NASA SU Series along with some other stuff. I'm planning on running the Sandhillls Open Road Challenge next year. The car is a full on Race Car and was Greg Collier's old car with a fully built 6 Bolt.

No, I meant on a technical level, what systems are currently in place on your car that require a standalone EMS. If the answer is none, swapping to ECMlink would be a cost effective, and IMO, smart move.

I have a fully built 6 bolt as well, and it doesn't require a standalone EMS. However, among other perks, a standalone EMS typically provides more robust logging, monitoring and safety systems which add a nice layer of protection for true race cars. However, if these features aren't currently being implemented to begin with, you won't really be losing out on anything. That was the point I was getting at.

 

[ninjai_ruken]

No, I meant on a technical level, what systems are currently in place on your car that require a standalone EMS. If the answer is none, swapping to ECMlink would be a cost effective, and IMO, smart move.

I have a fully built 6 bolt as well, and it doesn't require a standalone EMS. However, among other perks, a standalone EMS typically provides more robust logging, monitoring and safety systems which add a nice layer of protection for true race cars. However, if these features aren't currently being implemented to begin with, you won't really be losing out on anything. That was the point I was getting at.

While I'm not opposed to switching it up back to a Stock EMS with ESMlink, all of the tuning has been done with a AEM system which is why I would prefer to stick to that if I can but as you mentioned ESMlink might be the way to go when it comes to performance on the dollar. The build book is packed away someplace and I'm having a hard time remembering the full extent of the Tech side of this cars build, I tried to keep all my automotive stuff together but you know how major moves go. I'm sure the build book got packed away with something totally unrelated like box of old socks or something. In the meantime ill see if I can dig through the Archives and see what if any Tech information Greg Posted about his last season build. I hate to give you information thinking its correct only to find out I am wrong. I am not familiar with ESMlink so much.

Ty McBride
Team Leader/Owner
McBride Motorsports

Mechanic/Crewman
LAP Motorsports

 

[ninjai_ruken]

Can anyone help me out with who might have tuned Gregs AEM ECU. As I sit here trying to connect so that I may Log and or check the Tune and maybe set it back to baseline I was getting an

-Loading Serial Communications Library
-Initializing Comms
-Serial Comms Initialized
-Offline
-Online
-Found ECU TYPE 'AEM15GEN' Version '1.9'
-Found ECU TYPE 'AEM15GEN' Version '1.9'
-Found ECU TYPE 'AEM15GEN' Version '1.9'
-Found ECU TYPE 'AEM15GEN' Version '1.9'
-Found ECU TYPE 'AEM15GEN' Version '1.9'
-Found ECU TYPE 'AEM15GEN' Version '1.9'


so I dug a little deeper and it appears that many tuners were locking these AEM V1 ECU's in order to keep people from stealing their hard work. While I can understand the why and need. Its a pain in my ass right now as Im having a hard time working with it. I can view the tunes, parameters and everything else and the ECM is showing its awake and active. I can not load or change anything.

GST with PSI

I was going to dig up some old build posts for you so I can get you some technical data and info the the motor build but the site is having problems. Ill get back to you with that info as soon as I can.

Ty McBride
Team Leader/Owner
McBride Motorsports

Mechanic/Crewman
LAP Motorsports

 

[GST with PSI]

Ty,

The information isn't that critical for me. But, if you're considering switching to another tuning solution, it's information you'll probably want to know. An example of what I'm talking about might be logging multiple wideband O2s, logging individual EGT sensors, fail safes such as the car shuts down of oil pressure gets too low, etc. Some race cars are set up with these more robust features, because race car. If none of this kind of stuff rings a bell, I wouldn't worry about it too much.

One of the perks with using ECMlink is the amount of support that's available for the platform. If you were asking the questions above about ECMlink rather than AEM V1, about 90% of the community here could chime in. With AEM, there's just not as many people using it. And, the ones who are typically don't frequent the forums, or take the time to help random people figure out their issues.

If your car was previously making around 400hp, ECMlink will certainly support that. And, if you're planning to take on some of the tuning yourself, ECMlink is certainly the platform to get comfortable doing that as well.

I hate to sound like and ECMlink fanboy here, but for the DSM platform, the shit is just simply that good. I think you'd have a much easier getting the car sorted with a simpler tuning platform.

 

[19gsx91]

Brett, It's possible that while the car was being built ECMlink was still on v1 or v2 which would of been far behind what the AEM unit was capable of which might explain why it was necessary then, when they released the v3, that's when the ballgame shifted to ECMlinks court even for the race guys.

As far as the issue goes I'm kind of supporting something being messed up with the ECM.. but as a thought, you said you changed the foam in the fuel cell, is it possible something goes picked up in the filter? I know you said you checked fuel pressure but just because the pressure is good does not mean the volume is.

 

[ninjai_ruken]

So I had this big long response posted and I lost it for some reason so ill shorten it up

No spark all of a sudden, had spark yesterday

ECU is communicating with the PC just fine now.

Compression Test for shits and giggles in order to eliminate it

Cyl
1-165
2-164
3-165
4-165

Ive decided Im going to try and track down a 90 1g ECM so I can rule out if the AEM ECM is the problem. So would you guys please keep your ear to the ground for either a cheap ECM or one I can barrow. I would prefer to try a ECM before I buy. At least this way Ill narrow it down to an electrical issue. That being said I started on some body work. I had some contact in the right rear that sent me into the sand trap, cracked a lot of fiberglass. On the plus side I found out I can use my Chin Splitter as a plow very effectively.

As 19gsx91 stated this car was built in the early 2000's 2003 is the oldest tune file I can find 2006 being the newest and Gregs last season. Thanks guys

Ty McBride
Team Leader/Owner
McBride Motorsports

Mechanic/Crewman
LAP Motorsports

 

[19gsx91]

Hows your coil pack and transistor? possible voltage issue to them? No mice happened to make a vacation home in your car did they?

 

[ninjai_ruken]

Hows your coil pack and transistor? possible voltage issue to them? No mice happened to make a vacation home in your car did they?[/QUOTE

No mice, car has a COP system. Transistor is good, but just in case ill swap it out with my other one. MFI relay is good. I have spare for both so ill give them a shot.

Ty McBride
Team Leader/Owner
McBride Motorsports

Mechanic/Crewman
LAP Motorsports

 

[bling5tatus]

DSM Link would be a downgrade from your current tuning system whether you're using all of it's features or not. The spare inputs and outputs on your AEM alone are a reason to not go back to a stock ecu. It sounds like you have a real race car and **most real race cars that I've seen (I don't just watch street car drag racing) do not use a factory ecu. I'd pony up the money and get the V2 AEM if I were in your shoes because you'll be happier with the ability to do whatever the car needs in the future rather than being limited to DSM specific terms that are in DSM Link. I'm referring to terms like BoostEst and MafClampV and whatever other acronyms there are that nobody outside of the DSM world knows.

If you know how to tune on an AEM, and it is not hard to do, then you can tune anything. It amazes me that it would be suggested that you go back to a stock ecu after using a standalone for any reason other than you don't know how to tune. If you "don't know how to tune" it would make more sense to use the energy you will spend learning to learn something more robust and universal. That's just me though, maybe I'm crazy.

Also, if you were bent on going back to a stock ECU, it can be done cheapest while still retaining all the features you need by using an Ostrich Emulator and an eprom ecu with TunerPro RT.

 

[ninjai_ruken]

DSM Link would be a downgrade from your current tuning system whether you're using all of it's features or not. The spare inputs and outputs on your AEM alone are a reason to not go back to a stock ecu. It sounds like you have a real race car and **most real race cars that I've seen (I don't just watch street car drag racing) do not use a factory ecu. I'd pony up the money and get the V2 AEM if I were in your shoes because you'll be happier with the ability to do whatever the car needs in the future rather than being limited to DSM specific terms that are in DSM Link. I'm referring to terms like BoostEst and MafClampV and whatever other acronyms there are that nobody outside of the DSM world knows.

If you know how to tune on an AEM, and it is not hard to do, then you can tune anything. It amazes me that it would be suggested that you go back to a stock ecu after using a standalone for any reason other than you don't know how to tune. If you "don't know how to tune" it would make more sense to use the energy you will spend learning to learn something more robust and universal. That's just me though, maybe I'm crazy.

Also, if you were bent on going back to a stock ECU, it can be done cheapest while still retaining all the features you need by using an Ostrich Emulator and an eprom ecu with TunerPro RT.

Everything you stated is the main reason as to why I would prefer not to go backwards. My main thing with a stock ECU is I wanted to see if it would start and idle with a OEM system. That being said I think I found out my problem. It seems in my case updating the AEMPro software ended up causing me a major headache. The last tune that was put on this car that I can find all of a sudden was in 2003, I am not sure what happened to the previous files but the file names are the same as the ones that were dated 2007 the date just changed so it could be something else. But the problem I am having is the old tunes are .gdf files not .cal files and even going back to the .94v I have to convert them and that's the problem. None of the files want to convert right and keep their values. I have tried manually going in and changing all the settings copying the data from the .gdf file but still no luck. The closest I came was with this Fontana1 Tune after going back to .94v firmware. I discovered that Coils 3 and 4 where not checked. I enabled them and the car started and ran for a little bit but as soon as I took my foot off the throttle it died. Could someone help update amd convert one of these tunes for me?

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B7TajBZfP373OU1QaGxKWHZJQTg?usp=sharing

Ty McBride
Team Leader/Owner
McBride Motorsports

Mechanic/Crewman
LAP Motorsports

 

[bling5tatus]

Ty, I'm not an expert (yet) but I did tune a d16y8 that had a turbo added to it with V2 AEM EMS without knowing anything about AEM first. I have your files opened in another tab and will check them tomorrow to see what I can figure out but in the mean time if you would like to familiarize yourself with doing a ground up tune check out the videos by Jonathan Fasking on youtube. His videos got me to the point to where I could dd the honda and start making minor tweaks to the tune.

I'll try to help you with your files but I cannot make any guarantees and it's worth noting it will only take you an hour or two after watching the videos to have something rather drivable again if you have to start over.

 

[GST with PSI]

DSM Link would be a downgrade from your current tuning system whether you're using all of it's features or not. The spare inputs and outputs on your AEM alone are a reason to not go back to a stock ecu. It sounds like you have a real race car and **most real race cars that I've seen (I don't just watch street car drag racing) do not use a factory ecu. I'd pony up the money and get the V2 AEM if I were in your shoes because you'll be happier with the ability to do whatever the car needs in the future rather than being limited to DSM specific terms that are in DSM Link. I'm referring to terms like BoostEst and MafClampV and whatever other acronyms there are that nobody outside of the DSM world knows.

If you know how to tune on an AEM, and it is not hard to do, then you can tune anything. It amazes me that it would be suggested that you go back to a stock ecu after using a standalone for any reason other than you don't know how to tune. If you "don't know how to tune" it would make more sense to use the energy you will spend learning to learn something more robust and universal. That's just me though, maybe I'm crazy.

Also, if you were bent on going back to a stock ECU, it can be done cheapest while still retaining all the features you need by using an Ostrich Emulator and an eprom ecu with TunerPro RT.

DSMlink would be a downgrade, since that hardware/software has been replaced by ECMlink for years now. The shear fact that you use the two terms interchangeably seems to suggest you're out of touch with what ECMlink V3 is capable of, and are not familiar with the differences between the two. An assumption on my part, of course. Suffice it to say, ECMlink V3 will do everything a 400hp DSM will need it to do, track car or not.

ECMlink would only be a downgrade if you need functionality outside of what it has to offer. Hence, my question to the OP being:

on a technical level, what systems are currently in place on your car that require a standalone EMS.

Again, if the answer is currently none, then ECMlink is not really a downgrade is it? At that point, ECMlink isn't a downgrade, but instead it's a cheaper, more user friendly tuning solution that would allow the OP to get his car running in short order. Not to mention, he'd have a robust amount of support from the guys at ECMtuning, and the community here at his disposal... You know, the community being solicited to help in this thread. As I already alluded to in my previous post, and I'm sure you've noticed, the AEM guys aren't exactly crawling out of the woodwork to offer up assistance.

Seems to me the OP bought somebody else's race car, and didn't get much in the way of an in-depth turnover. The other consideration I was hinting at was, who's gonna tune this thing? The OP? Somebody else? If somebody else, that's a decent commitment to make financially on a car that's going to be tracked. Also, you've got to consider the time required when your tuner isn't in your pocket. I know a tune from 2007 certainly won't carry the day in any competition, so the OP has some work and decisions to make ahead of him.

Tuning concepts are the only part of tuning that's universal. Tuning solutions are not, even if they work on multiple platforms. I'm simply recommending the OP get savvy on universal tuning concepts using a simple, user friendly tuning platform that actually has adequate support from the community he's soliciting help from. Judging by the information currently given about his car, I see no reason ECMlink wouldn't get the job done. If that's wrong, then I'm not sure what to say. I'm simply offering my perspective to prompt the OP to use his best judgment and determine the best tool for the job here.

BTW, John's 2G DSM "real race car" seems to work just fine on ECMlink...Just sayin: http://www.dsmtuners.com/dsm-profiles/tsiawd666s-eclipse-gsx.1768/

 

[ninjai_ruken]

GST with PSI its funny you linked that car because that car currently has the same sponsors as us. Guys, I have to step away from discussion for a few days as I'm swamped at work and will have very little time. But Im not leaving for abandoning this post as Im still scratching my head, one thing I should mention. I noticed that after I upload a tune file, power cycle the ECU and reconnect the file I uploaded is replaced by WORKLOAD.CAL file. Strange indeed. In the mean time this is what Im dealing with at work


As a side note, I got 52 tore down and on the frame jig by 1pm..


Ty McBride
Team Leader/Owner
McBride Motorsports

Mechanic/Crewman
LAP Motorsports

 

[ninjai_ruken]

Just wanted to give you guys a little update. I'm still at work doing set up on our number 73 race car. But I have an OEM ECU coming for the Flying Banana. It'll be tomarrow

 

[steve]

Keep in mind that the Flying Banana may have started out life as a 90 but it's possible that it's no longer wired like one from an ECU perspective.

It's been years and possible several engine iterations since Greg and I last spoke about the car.

 

[ninjai_ruken]

Keep in mind that the Flying Banana may have started out life as a 90 but it's possible that it's no longer wired like one from an ECU perspective.

It's been years and possible several engine iterations since Greg and I last spoke about the car.

I'm actually working on her right now. I appears I may have to take it apart pull the motor, trace all the wiring make sure everything is good and go from there. I never had a issue until the ECU went belly up and I sent it out to be repaired..frustrating

 

[steve]

Start with the simple stuff, trace the ISC and IPS wiring by checking which pins back on the ECU connector are which. DVM and a extended lead to reach on ohms to measure continuity. Check the COP wiring and Power Transistor to see which version PTM was used. I'm assuming the AEM is running SD and there isn't a MAF.

A stock ECU and something MMCd or TMO logger will tell you a lot about the status of the other sensors and may tell you why it won't start/run without tearing the who this apart.

The V1 AEM's seem to be a little short on robustness.

 

[ninjai_ruken]

Ok guys, so I got the car to run for a little bit, it never idled on its own fully. What I had to do was use AEMProClassic. Revert the ECU Firmware to v.94 I then made sure AutoEE was On. I uploaded a calibration file that was in the old .gdf format. I replaced a section of fuel hose from the fuel rail to the FPR and noticed my FP dropped by about 15 on my gauge which is weird seeing as ive never messed with the FPR Set Screw. I adjusted it until I seen around 50PSI and the car started and ran but only with the accelerator pressed. While it was running it was stumbling horribly and I noticed that my PSI was pegged so I adjusted the FPR at about 32PSI it cleaned out and was sounding great but still would not idle on its own. On the next try the car seemed like it didnt want to start so I set the FPR to 50PSI KOEO and she fired up and the FP settled at around 38PSI on its own. It was stumbling a little bit so in AEMProclassic I went to set IGN and advanced it a tiny bit...she ran beautifully but once again wont idle. Shuts right off the minute the foot is lifted. I reset everything back to the way it was at the beginning of the first startup for the night so I can start fresh again. I have to leave for Limerock on Wed so ill probably be way to busy to mess with her much for a couple of weeks.