First time at an autocross event

[logic]

Okay, so I finally got myself down to an autocross event. A local club hosts 6-8 events each year, and it's a very laid-back kind of thing; none of the classification rules that the SCCA has; classes are defined per-event, based on run time, without regard for vehicle or modifications ("run what ya brung"). Classes are A (fastest) through E (slowest, usually newcomers); I ran a respectable 58.09 seconds, which netted second place in D class. I was pretty happy about that for my first time out, especially considering my first run was at 61+ seconds.

Some amazing cars, some even more amazing driving; one bone-stock, automatic transmission late-model Camero, with a ton of body roll, flew through the cones like greased lightning, while a lowered, stiff-as-a-board Supra couldn't put any of it's power to the ground. A heavily-modified, purpose-build Boss Mustang was the main attraction, and seemed to be just glued to the pavement; I chuckled when I first saw the freakishly wide tires in the front and back of that thing, but stopped laughing when I saw what he did with them.

Learned a few things:

• No matter how fast you think you're going, you're wrong. "Butt dynos" mean nothing, but they mean less with auto-x.
• Those squealing tires that make it sound like you're going like a bat out of hell? That's the sound of your traction being sucked away. See previous point about being wrong.
• If you grind second gear every so often in day-to-day driving, you'll grind it every other corner in auto-x. Grr.
• Holy shit, lateral g-forces are cool.
• Power steering will vanish at the worst possible moment, usually in the middle of a long slalom. (Pointers on making this not ever happen again gratefully accepted; it scared the crap out of me the first time it happened.)
• Aim at the cone you want to dodge, and mash the gas. You'll miss it. Barely.
• Never underestimate a 65 hp Fiat whose owner is fanatic about shaving off "just one more pound".
• Just buy the damn helmet. It doesn't matter if someone told you that the club has loaner helmets. They do, but someone else is using it, and you're holding up the line. (This will be my next purchase.)

Anyways, if all you've ever done at a track is run down the 1/4, find a little club like this holding an event and give it a try. I can't believe how much I learned about my car with just a day of driving it like that.

 

[cait sith]

First off, what were you doing shifting to second a few times? Second gear is "the" autocross gear for all DSM's unless you're hitting third gear, which means it is one fast course. It's the general rule of thumb that (unless you've got an EVO1 tranny with the ultra short gearing) you go from first to second and that's it. Revlimiter is fun. Pop pop pop pop.

And yes, little hondas and low power cars usually can throw down rediculously low times.

 

[igs]

Autocross is gaay. Miniature golf is to golf as autocross is to racing.

 

[logic]

cait sith: Hey, I'm still learning, and it was my first time out. Actually, most of the time I found myself in first gear except for three straight legs (entering the course, a leg between the slaloms and a loop, and a long back straightaway); negotiating the slaloms at the top end of first gear was scary enough with the power steering cutting out, I'm not sure I would have held the car down the course in second properly (or would have bogged too much; it was nice having the responsiveness of the top end of 1st to work with). There's another event in a couple of weeks, I'll try sticking to second for one of the runs and see how it affects back-to-back run times. (I suspect a lightweight flywheel, finishing up the exhaust, and a little more intake work might make 2nd responsive enough to do what you suggest, if it's not a workable solution yet.)

There was a Celica there that was constantly riding the rev limiter; any straight stretch of road sounded like a popcorn popper. Hard to argue with his times, though.

igs: You're absolutely right. Autocross isn't exactly road racing, but it'll have to do until my skills improve and my car can take that kind of beating.

(Ye ghods, intellectual heavyweights abound on DSMtuners these days: is "gaay" the best we can muster these days?)

 

[cait sith]

Originally posted by igs
Autocross is gaay. Miniature golf is to golf as autocross is to racing.

Says the one with the automatic GSX.

Also: Trust me on second. Our cars have enough low-end grunt to pull from lower RPM's unless you're running some mondo T4 that starts spooling around 5k. First gear tops out at 35 miles per hour, SLAMMING into the rev limiter. I've hit it enough times to know where it is... heh.

 

[igs]

Originally posted by cait sith

Says the one with the automatic GSX.

AUTOMATIC OWNZ JOO!!!!

 

[4pistons]

logic, I was there, too, glad to see you had a good time! I felt the same way when I first tried it. It's amazing how well you DON'T know how to drive! You did pretty well if you improved by 3 seconds!

Don't even try to get down into first on that course, you'll be wasting your time. After my shift into second it stays there until that back stretch where I got into third a few times. The biggest effect on times will be your improvement on your driving skills. Smooth and steady is usually the fastest way around. Beyond that its Tires, then Tires and then Tires, in that order!!

Check out the VFAQ for solving the power steering cut-out problem. http://maritime.dsm.org/vfaq/pspump/index.html My friend was having problems on his '99 Spyder, too. We'll try the fix and see how it works.

Rick - '91 GSX

 

[logic]

Hey Rick! Not to sound like I'm glad that he's having trouble, but...well...I'm glad it wasn't just me with steering issues. Thanks for the link; I was sure I'd checked through vfaq.com, but only remembered seeing 1g-related stuff, and wasn't sure if that was the same thing I was seeing (after reading that VFAQ, it's a word-for-word description of what happened to me).

(I was wrong above about where I placed; when they posted the results, I came in first in D class, woo!)

The tires held on pretty well, all things considered, but I'd talked to a couple of people who auto-x regularly before buying them (Sumitomo HTR+). The fellow with the Fiat gave me a few pointers on getting the tire pressures right (mark the sidewall, do a run, inflate/deflate, repeat), which I'll try on Sunday. (Assuming the weather agrees, of course...)

 

[nutshot]

I love the concept of turning. Making an art of corners is the secret to all super-cars (any Mullet-stang in the world can shoot 1/4miles at a time). Keep posting your updates, logic, it will be interesting to see how your car advances.

 

[Steviethewrench]

VFAQ.com has a high RPM power steering cutout fix. It involves keeping a flow valve open in your steering pump with some spacers. I've done it and it helps for autocross. The only downside is a loss of power assist at an idle.
BTW I'd rather play miniature golf than drive an automatic.

 

[logic]

Okay, so I just finished my second event with new helmet in hand. I'd start a new thread, but the draggers-to-autoxers ratio on DSMtuners suggests that I should probably just keep this stuff in one place. I learned a few new things; don't hate me because I'm a complete newbie when it comes to this.

First (as everyone suggested), second gear was the better choice for most of the course, and with the new downpipe, it was amazingly responsive (ye ghods, I love that new exhaust). Only one caveat: there's a "box" (don't know the proper term for it; it's a rectangular area with entrance at north and exit at east, all about the size of a parking space) which forces a pretty dramatic speed reduction. When I was negotiating it in first gear, I was speeding through there (I was sliding the car sideways through there without reducing speed much, and just barely missing the back "wall" of the box), but second gear bogs too much to pull that off at the speed it feels like I need to take it at. I want to take another shot at that trying a quick shift down to first and skidding through there (like I was doing before), but the next event is three weeks from now, so I'll have to wait.

Second, understeer sucks, 'nuff said. I now want a rear sway bar very badly. Most of the course isn't too bad, but there was a 300 degree corner and a full circle that I was basically plowing around. Bleh.

Third, playing with the tire pressure helps immensely. I managed to get some of the understeer under control by bringing down the pressure all around (yes, down; you don't want to know what the pressure was at previously, and yes, I will be keeping a closer eye on my tire pressure from now on), with more pressure in the back (about 45psi) than up front (40psi). Everything just felt "grippier".

Fourth and finally, my clutch won't take much more of this. Anyone have the hookup on a good price for an ACT 2600 w/street disc and Fidanza flywheel?

By the end of the day, my times were almost a second better than my best from the previous event (same course layout, although I'm convinced the end of the course was a little more compact than last time). Another DSMer was out there with a 16g-equipped 1g (and beat my time by a second): that turbo just wasn't made for low-speed work. From his descriptions, he never really hit boost except for the end of the back straightaway, while I was running at least a few psi just about everywhere. It made me appreciate my little T-25 hairdryer.

 

[4pistons]

there's a "box" (don't know the proper term for it; it's a rectangular area with entrance at north and exit at east, all about the size of a parking space) which forces a pretty dramatic speed reduction.

On that particular cource they call that the "Garage Gate" because of the configuration of the cones. There is a way to get through there pretty fast. Walk down there and watch the faster guys blast through it. The key is to come in at a shallower angle off the "skidpad" without slowing too much. I know it seems tight but even the Vettes and F-Bodies slide through there.

Part of the trouble us newbies have is judging where the cones on the right are. Once they drop out of sight below the door you can't see them.
"But with the cone below the doorsill I can't even see! How am I supposed to drive?" "Your eyes can decieve you, don't trust them."
Line up so you just miss the cone on your left and blast through. If youv'e got the angle right you'll miss the "back" cone. If you don't then adjust your approach angle a little.

my clutch won't take much more of this. Anyone have the hookup on a good price for an ACT 2600 w/street disc and Fidanza flywheel?

Mine's toast!! That's why I was only spectating. After racing a few times it's hard to just sit there and watch!

By the end of the day, my times were almost a second better than my best from the previous event

What did you end up running? They haven't posted any of the results yet. I was talking to Mitch with the 1G, he's new at the Auto-X too. Nice guy, very friendly, had alot of homemade stuff done to his car. It's nice to see some enthusiatic Auto-X guys in the area.

Rick - '91 GSX

 

[logic]

Sorry it took so long to respond, it's been a crazy week at work.

Originally posted by 4pistons
The key is to come in at a shallower angle off the "skidpad" without slowing too much. I know it seems tight but even the Vettes and F-Bodies slide through there.

I'd like to point out that the Z06 made short work of it. Just need a little more practice, methinks.

Mine's toast!! That's why I was only spectating. After racing a few times it's hard to just sit there and watch!

Heh. Sometime this week, the clutch and flywheel sitting on my dining room table will be going on the car. I was planning on doing it this weekend, but by the time I found a place to surface/step the flywheel properly (note to anyone else wondering: call Carquest or Napa, they'll do it...although I'm tempted to ask Mitch if his shop'll do it), it was already too late in the day, so I'm out of luck until Tuesday.

What did you end up running? They haven't posted any of the results yet.

They have now. I managed a 57.16 as the best time of the day. I'll probably be happy if I can get that down into the 56-second range next time out (which should be more than possible, if I can quit messing up a couple of corners).

 

[mdre21]

sounds like you keep getting better, in a spot like that on most autocross courses where you bog in second it would be better to learn left foot braking then to shift into first. I obviously haven't seen the course but it will help you keep your rpms and more importantly your boost up. You don't think a down shift takes that much time but then you got to remember you are only in 1st for a few seconds before you have to upshift again. Also, 2nd-1st down shifts are murder on all tranny parts, especially on a gsx. I run an nt and still use left foot braking in parts where a lot of turbo cars definately should and they have that whole advantage of boost.

 

[rookieupgrade1]

I learned some stuff just reading this thread. I havent raced yet but the local club has an event on the 15th that I fully intend to hit. Bad part.....I am 1 point from being in the prepared class. (only alow 2 to remain stock) Good news.....powerslotted and dimpledriled roters are not a point as long as they remain stock diameter! Yeah! ( I make these by the way, if you need some)

I want to get 15" wheels insetad of my 16s. My speedo is off any how and it will correct this problem. I think with my N/T it might just give me a little more tourqe on the local tracks which are really tight.

I know of 3 guys at work that are members of the autox club and they have all been in to talk me into going out.

I'm game. Bad news.....I need a clutch befor I go.

Hopeing for an ACT!

 

[igs]

hmmmm..... left foot braking sounds like a good idea!

 

[DragonKnight]

Congrats on your first autocross, logic. It is a truly satisfying motorsport that will reward you with increasingly improved skills. I've finally started down my first real season in STX-N autocrossing my 2000 Toyota Celica GT-S and my 1992 Plymouth Laser RS AWD. Despite being in Novice it really feels good being in first place.

As for those who think autocrossing isn't for them or has no respect for it, it's all good. I road race and drag race as well. But with autocrossing its all about skill and not the car. When you have an extremely skilled Honda Insight autocrosser beating the pants out of WRX drivers, you know its all driver's skill. It brings things into perspective when you know its all about skill rather than the size of your wallet making you the best in your chosen motorsport.

-Rich

 

[igs]

Originally posted by DragonKnight

As for those who think autocrossing isn't for them or has no respect for it, it's all good. I road race and drag race as well. But with autocrossing its all about skill and not the car. When you have an extremely skilled Honda Insight autocrosser beating the pants out of WRX drivers, you know its all driver's skill. It brings things into perspective when you know its all about skill rather than the size of your wallet making you the best in your chosen motorsport.

I don't agree with that. Autocross is just a bunch of tight turns. It takes more skill to take a corner at 80mph than it does at 20mph. Sure the car comes into play but you should be comparing yourself with cars in the same class anyway. Even autocross separates cars into different classes.

 

[mdre21]

i wouldn't say it takes more skill, i think the skill is the same. Yes the speeds are completely different but the way autocross courses are set up they multiply the speed by making the turns tight, narrow and don't leave much room for error. A road race also doesn't leave much room for error but if you do make a mistake you may be able to make it up on the next lap, or next several laps. Autocross you may only get 3 maybe 4 tries at it before the day is done. The one skill that generally gets neglected in Autocross because of the speeds is shifting, most autocross courses are probably too fast if you make it into 3rd gear (at least in a street car). Road racing however you will have to shift both up and down, while braking, while turning, that's really what seperates road race from autocross. However, i've done both, I enjoy both and everyone else should too, turning the wheel is a lot more enjoyable then just mashing the gas!!!

 

[4pistons]

Autocross is just a bunch of tight turns. It takes more skill to take a corner at 80mph than it does at 20mph.

You obviously have never done it and don't know what it takes to do it. The skill required to maintain velocity and momentum through tight corners is a learned art. You don't just whip the steering wheel back and forth wildly and mash the gas and brakes! (Althought the really good guys make it look that way!) If you lose speed in the corner on a road course you have a long straight-away to make up for it. Do the same thing in an Autocross and you've lost.

Rick - '91 GSX - Whipping the wheel like a jockey!!

 

[igs]

Originally posted by 4pistons

You obviously have never done it and don't know what it takes to do it.

Well I have and I'll bet I can beat you any day of the week. I'll even drive a Civic on all season tires.

 

[cait sith]

Road Racing differs from Autocross in one big huge reason: Balls.

I'm not going to disrespect autocross, as it's a very reactionary, very "on your feet" type thing, but there's a huge difference between flopping around in second gear at 60 miles per hour, maybe getting up to 70 or 80 at brief points in the A mod cars, and tapping upwards of 130 MPH, then having to get the right braking points, never mind the whole thing of having other cars to compete with (although it depends a lot on your class). It's a good starter for people to kick around in and have fun with street cars, but it boggles my mind, as someone who's grown up around road racing, when people show up with full modified, trailered cars that could as easily be run in SCCA road course work.

Like I said though, it's a matter of balls.

 

[igs]

I agree. I think my balls have shrunk from doing autocross.

 

[logic]

It was interesting to see, at the first auto-x event I attended (like I said above, it's non-SCCA, just a local club), both a bottle-fed Focus brought in on a trailer, and that built Mustang. I'm pretty sure the Mustang driver hit road courses, but the stickers on the Focus hinted that she was strictly autocross. It seemed like overkill for a small event like that; everyone else was running whatever they drove there, and the whole atmosphere was pretty laid-back (which suited me just fine, being a newbie to the whole thing).

I'm interested in learning a little more about road racing, but am pretty ignorant of the sport right now; as far as I know, the nearest courses are a few hours drive away from here (Chicago area; I think someone mentioned Gingerman up in Michigan, and one I can't remember the name of in Indiana). How different are the rules/classifications for a road race car vs. autorcoss? Any special build-up of the car required before being eligible to participate?

The big advantage autocross has for me is that an event can be just about anywhere; find a flat-ish parking lot, set up some cones, and viola! Instant track. There's five or six major drag strips within easy driving distance from here. But finding a road racing course doesn't seem to be quite so easy.

 

[mdre21]

what about Road America in Elkhart Lake