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First DSM! (I'm a Toyota guy...)

Posted by TinyGarageFab, Dec 5, 2019

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  1. TinyGarageFab

    TinyGarageFab Probationary Member

    1
    4
    Joined Dec 5, 2019
    Virginia Beach, Virginia
    Hi. I'm Matt, and as the title states, I'm a ToyotaHead, and recently got a 1993 Eagle Talon TSi AWD 5MT. I thought I got a smokin' deal on the thing ($475!) but it turns out I didn't get a very good car at all. I'm about three months into owning it, a little over $4k thrown at it, and I still have not heard it run even once. :banghead: I joined here to get some help, tbh.

    If the darn thing will ever run, here's what I'm going for after getting to know the car a bit: Basically stock-ish. I don't drag race, and I don't really need to go hella fast anywhere, at any time. I got a 2g MAF and aluminum intake tube, 2g throttlebody inlet elbow, and I'll be making some custom hard piping for the intercooler stuff. I got 2.5" exhaust pipe to make a custom exhaust, utilizing Vibrant Performance cat, resonator, and muffler. I'm a fabricator, so the intercooler and exhaust is going to have a little bit of fancy work integrated. I'll keep the 14b, but turn it up to ~16psi with a MBC, and have Denso 660s to cover the extra air. EPROM will be a White Shed stage 2, which basically just tunes for the 2g MAF and raises the redline to 8500 (plus some other tweaks to support, obviously) . That's about it for engine stuff.

    I got some rad 17x7.5 +45 wheels for it already, and I'm waiting to get the car running before I mount them.

    That's it. That's my DSM in a nutshell. I look forward to the experience here on DSMtuners!
     

    157  5

    1993 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    awd · manual · 1G DSM
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    buddahboost, Ludachris and delta448 like this.
  2. motomattx

    motomattx Proven Member

    2,052
    748
    Joined Dec 9, 2010
    wampum, Pennsylvania
    Welcome! when you get a chance fill out a profile and even add some pictures of your new car for us to see.
     

    Drag Race Build 3K  24

    1995 Mitsubishi Eclipse GST
    fwd · manual · 2G DSM
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  3. tk106

    tk106 Supporting Member

    2,114
    654
    Joined Sep 11, 2017
    Cincinnati, Ohio
    Welcome Matt! I'd like to see what you got for $475 :sneaky:
     

    229  3

    2000 Jeep Cherokee Sport - Classic
    awd · automatic · Misc Vehicles

    217  4

    93 Civic 4 Door -sold-
    fwd · manual · Misc Vehicles

    Street Build 2K  6

    1992 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    12.625 @ 111.42 · 1G DSM
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  4. TinyGarageFab

    TinyGarageFab Probationary Member

    1
    4
    Joined Dec 5, 2019
    Virginia Beach, Virginia
    I just made a DSM profile "POS DSM"
     

    157  5

    1993 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    awd · manual · 1G DSM
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  5. tk106

    tk106 Supporting Member

    2,114
    654
    Joined Sep 11, 2017
    Cincinnati, Ohio
    Think you can sell those wheel and recoup most of the $475. LOL.
     

    229  3

    2000 Jeep Cherokee Sport - Classic
    awd · automatic · Misc Vehicles

    217  4

    93 Civic 4 Door -sold-
    fwd · manual · Misc Vehicles

    Street Build 2K  6

    1992 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    12.625 @ 111.42 · 1G DSM
    Loading...
  6. C'LO

    C'LO Supporting Member

    89
    13
    Joined Sep 9, 2007
    Haverhill, Massachusetts
    What kind of Toyota’s have you had?
     
  7. 1990TSIAWDTALON

    1990TSIAWDTALON Moderator

    4,771
    2,156
    Joined Nov 14, 2013
    Independence, Kansas
    Welcome Matt. Thanks for joining in and I would bet dollars to donuts, we can help you out and get that thing to fire up!
    Marty
     

    Street Build 4K  28

    1992 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    awd · automatic · 1G DSM

    684  14

    1990 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    awd · manual · 1G DSM

    512  18

    1967 Chevrolet Camaro RS
    rwd · automatic · Misc Vehicles

    Street Build 726  7

    1998 Eagle Talon TSi
    fwd · manual · 2G DSM

    Street Build 5K  11  25

    1990 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    13.620 @ 108.460 · 1G DSM
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  8. Ludachris

    Ludachris Founder & Zookeeper

    3,657
    1,019
    Joined Nov 12, 2001
    Roseville, California
    Ugh, sorry to hear about all the unpleasant discoveries - just read the background in your vehicle profile. Welcome to the site though, and hopefully you're able to get this thing running soon.
     

    Street Build 9K  0

    1997 Eagle Talon TSi AWD (sold)
    manual · 2G DSM

    Road Race Build 7K  10  23

    1991 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    435.0 whp · 399.2 lb/ft · 1G DSM
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  9. Dhan

    Dhan Supporting Member

    899
    131
    Joined Apr 29, 2010
    Denver, Colorado
    I haven't someone say "hella" in years. Forgot all about that haha.

    Welcome aboard! $475 is a smoking deal to me. DSMs have shot up in price and there's been a few in my area, not running, going for $1500-2000!

    What's wrong with yours? Why doesn't it run? I think pretty much every issue possible with these cars has been run into at least once by now, so we'll here to help you get her back on the road.
     

    2K  4

    1992 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    awd · manual · 1G DSM
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  10. TinyGarageFab

    TinyGarageFab Probationary Member

    1
    4
    Joined Dec 5, 2019
    Virginia Beach, Virginia
    I currently have:
    1983 Celica GT
    1985 Van
    1987 Hilux 2wd
    1987 MR2
    1998 4Runner

    The rest of my (project) fleet is:
    1951 Ford F-1 rat truck
    1957 Chevy pickup
    1964 Impala
    1967 Cougar

    So it should be apparent that I'm at least an average mechanic. But I gotta say...this DSM has me stumped. It's as if the rules of normal cars and systems don't apply to it.
     

    157  5

    1993 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    awd · manual · 1G DSM
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  11. TinyGarageFab

    TinyGarageFab Probationary Member

    1
    4
    Joined Dec 5, 2019
    Virginia Beach, Virginia
    My main problem is no injector pulse, and it has been brought up several times here, but never really answered (I've been searching as a lurker for about two months.)
    I have tested this thing to death, and still cannot find out why it will not send a low signal to pin 2 on the injectors. Today, I found a strange occurance, and I need to dive into it a little more: the resistor pack wiring that goes TO the pack has +12v on all wires while disconnected from the resistor pack. (resistor pack has 6 ohms across each resistor, fyi) That means, and has been found through testing, that there is +12V going to pin 2 from the ECU when key is on. This voltage is backfed through the injector, and shows up at the resistor pack connector. The problem here is that NO signal of any kind should be on that wire until the ECU sends a low signal, if I'm understanding everything correctly.

    Things I've tested/swapped:
    - Coolant temp sensor reads about 2.7k ohms (about 50 degrees out) and that is read at both the sensor itself, and ECU pins 20 & 24. CTS plug also has about +6v with key on.
    - continuity check of wiring from each injector plug to pins 51, 52, 60, 61 show that harness is intact and not cut/melted/etc.
    - CAS has been swapped to a new Mitsubishi unit. Old unit seems fine. When plugged in and spun by hand, spark plugs fire, fuel pump runs, but no injector pulse. Verified with voltmeter and noid light.
    - yes, there is fuel at the rail, fuel pump works, and gas in the tank. None of those things would stop the ECU from telling the injector to fire, but I have to mention it.
    - ground wires from battery, intake, both fenders, and firewall have been cleaned to bare metal and tested with voltmeter for continuity. Grounds are good
    - wiring from CAS to ECU plugs tested for continuity, and check out good. pin 3 on CAS has +12v, pin 4 has good ground.
    - MPI relay works and sends power to all places it should, as tested by back-probing ECU plugs
    - Original ECU looked bad, and I replaced capacitors. I have a lot of experience with 2M work, the cap install is flawless. ECU seems to work (CEL ~5 sec, Boost to zero, tach bounces while cranking.)
    - Swapped in a socketed GVR4 ECU that came from working car (well, it was on a shelf for a couple years, but is clean and caps are good. EPROM is a Stage 0 from White Shed Speed), still does not work.
    - ISC tested for continuity to ECU plugs, all good, and resistance at motor is within spec.
    - TPS readings at plug and unit are within spec
    - pretty much any other tests have been run and everything is in spec. I've even gone as far as to pull Anti-theft relay to see what happens. I'm officially stumped.

    Now here's the only idea I have: When back-probing ECU pin 108 (starter signal) I get ~9.2 volts. This is because the amperage draw of the starter while turning will cause a voltage drop. Is this too much voltage drop? What is the required switching voltage of the ECU that needs to be seen on 108 in order to 'wake up' the ECU and set everything in motion? New ground cables to block and positive cables to starter (basically the 'big 3') will be installed, but do they need to be?

    I'm sure this could/should be moved to a better section, but I was asked, so I answered. LOL
     

    157  5

    1993 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    awd · manual · 1G DSM
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  12. EVLGSX

    EVLGSX Proven Member

    471
    194
    Joined Dec 7, 2017
    Wallingford, Connecticut
    Ive had many MR2s

    I really miss my 88 Supercharged. Didnt make a whole lot of power stock, but I did whatever I could to squeeze some more out of that unsupported platform. Ive never driven a car that handles better. Ive been kinda half way searching again.
     

    Street Build 2K  15

    1997 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    awd · manual · 2G DSM
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    TinyGarageFab likes this.
  13. We're on Boost

    We're on Boost Proven Member

    937
    84
    Joined Aug 25, 2007
    Seattle area, Washington
    Hey this is kind of interesting and it might help answer a question I've had for a long time.
    So, looking at a couple of my logs that show a cold start, here's what I see:
    The injector duty is 0% until the "Battery" goes above 10 volts.
    My "Battery" voltage drops to about 8.3 as soon as I start cranking. Then the length of time to go above 10 volts is pretty variable from log to log - as short as 0.2 sec or as long as about half a second. Either way the InjDuty is 0 until "Battery" goes above 10 volts.
    I don't know, maybe this way of looking at it is meaningless because the time interval is so short.

    BTW, on my car I completely bypassed the "Start" position on the ignition switch with a new circuit that goes right from the battery, through an inline fuse, to a 50 amp momentary pushbutton switch on my dash (pic of it in my "photos" tab), then directly to the outgoing leg of the socket for the starter relay (under the dashboard - relay removed). This I did because the "Start" position on my ignition switch had gradually gotten lamer and lamer (voltage drop I guess) so it wouldn't even fire the starter solenoid most of the time. This has been working great ever since. But I never had the particular problem you are talking about.

    I'm also a Toyota fan and my "Real Car" is a 1990 Toyota Corolla with about 315,000 miles on it and it is pretty stock.
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2019

    4K  19

    1990 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    650 whp · 510 lb/ft · 1G DSM

    2K  0

    1990 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    manual · 1G DSM
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  14. motomattx

    motomattx Proven Member

    2,052
    748
    Joined Dec 9, 2010
    wampum, Pennsylvania
    You need to install your ecu in another car and see if it will start that other car, so many things can go wrong with the ecu especially if you had leaking capacitors, you might have a bad trace or bad injector drivers.
     

    Drag Race Build 3K  24

    1995 Mitsubishi Eclipse GST
    fwd · manual · 2G DSM
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  15. We're on Boost

    We're on Boost Proven Member

    937
    84
    Joined Aug 25, 2007
    Seattle area, Washington
    In case it helps you any, you can trace where 108 on the ecu goes real easy on this diagram, for the 91-94.

    1g 91-94  DSM ecu engine wiring circuit diagram from hot rod coffee shop.jpg
     

    4K  19

    1990 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    650 whp · 510 lb/ft · 1G DSM

    2K  0

    1990 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    manual · 1G DSM
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    SoopaStar and buddahboost like this.

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