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2G FIAV block off, fixed high idle, now causing another idle issue

Misterflipster

Proven Member
87
21
Apr 5, 2020
sioux falls, South_Dakota
So yesterday i got the fiav blocked and now from a cold start i hold the throttle open and the car will eventually hold itself at 1k. However once i go to drive it and i put it under load, when i come off the gas it will die.

Other issue i have is that the car wont start after it warms up, im thinking its an alternator issue because it will run for some time and die on its own also. Dash lights flicker, i havent seen headlights flickering but yeah. I think its an alternator? My tuner suggested checking grounds (he believes the car might be relying on the chasis too much for ground??)
 

steve

DSM Wiseman
14,874
1,722
Feb 3, 2002
Boulder, Colorado
You can start by unchecking Enable idle switch operation and Disable idle switch while moving

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Mistake on my part. You want Enable idle switch operation checked but Disable idle switch while moving and Simulate idle switch from TPS unchecked. If you leave Simulate idle switch from TPS checked it will ignore the actual IPS input.
 

Misterflipster

Proven Member
87
21
Apr 5, 2020
sioux falls, South_Dakota
Mistake on my part. You want Enable idle switch operation checked but Disable idle switch while moving and Simulate idle switch from TPS unchecked. If you leave Simulate idle switch from TPS checked it will ignore the actual IPS input.
Oooooh okay, yeah i figured but didnt question it. Cuz as soon as u click disable idle switch it greys out the other options automatically. Okay. I will do this when i get home in the morning. Still the idle sits at 2k-2500 and wont come down...even with us changing all these settings huhs
 

pauleyman

DSM Wiseman
8,300
2,847
Nov 19, 2011
oklahoma city, Oklahoma
Yeah when the car is warm its a pain to start. Oh i just saw 31% so thats what i went with. I will make those adjustments when i get home from work. As for the timing i am not sure, previous owner never mentioned any issues with timing so ive been trying it as is...the "tuners" didnt say anything about the timing either so i can look at it. Although physically adjusting it will take some work/time if the belt has to come off and what not. I will check to see if the lines meet up when i rotate the belt in the morning.
We're not talking about mechanical timing. We're talking ignition timing. No way for it to not sound condescending but you do know the difference?
 

Misterflipster

Proven Member
87
21
Apr 5, 2020
sioux falls, South_Dakota
We're not talking about mechanical timing. We're talking ignition timing. No way for it to not sound condescending but you do know the difference?
No, i dont or at least vaguely. I take no offence, im new to this so im just rolling with the punches. My abilities are very limited, but i am learning alot from the forums and trying things that id otherwise not know. I can do things like replace parts and maintaining but building, setting, ect. Is a different story. My other dsm i had work done to i had a buddy where i lived before who was very helpful. And i learned alot from him, but theres still alot i dont know. Shout out pedro LOL
 

pauleyman

DSM Wiseman
8,300
2,847
Nov 19, 2011
oklahoma city, Oklahoma
We're not talking about mechanical timing. We're talking ignition timing. No way for it to not sound condescending but you do know the difference?
No, i dont or at least vaguely. I take no offence, im new to this so im just rolling with the punches. My abilities are very limited, but i am learning alot from the forums and trying things that id otherwise not know. I can do things like replace parts and maintaining but building, setting, ect. Is a different story. My other dsm i had work done to i had a buddy where i lived before who was very helpful. And i learned alot from him, but theres still alot i dont know. Shout out pedro LOL
About the only thing they have in common is the word timing.
Mechanical timing, controlled by the timing belt, is the relationship of intake and exhaust valves opening and closing relative to crank position.
Ignition timing is the point at which spark occurs relative to crank position usually within a few degrees before or after top dead center. I assume that's understandable
 

Misterflipster

Proven Member
87
21
Apr 5, 2020
sioux falls, South_Dakota
Ab
About the only thing they have in common is the word timing.
Okay, so what i was thinking about doing with looking at the timing marks on the belt and what not is the mechanical side. So checking ignition timing? How do i do that?
 

Justin DuBois

Proven Member
961
757
Aug 15, 2019
Oakland, California
Mechanical timing is set by aligning all the components running off the timing belt.

Ignition timing is what the ecu does with spark. Spark is triggered based on the crank angle sensor signal.

You can melt or bend things if any of the timing stuff is wrong.

Both kinds of timing are important.

On your car you need to calibrate the ignition timing so that the crank angle signal is in alignment with the crank.

Your crank signal is coming from the 4 wire sensor on the head, and you need to use a timing light to determine when the spark is being triggered relative to the crank by looking at the marks on the crank pulley. Its a simple matter of adjusting the cam sensor position until the timing reported in ecmlink matches the crank.
 

Misterflipster

Proven Member
87
21
Apr 5, 2020
sioux falls, South_Dakota
Mechanical timing is set by aligning all the components running off the timing belt.

Ignition timing is what the ecu does with spark. Spark is triggered based on the crank angle sensor signal.

You can melt or bend things if any of the timing stuff is wrong.

Both kinds of timing are important.

On your car you need to calibrate the ignition timing so that the crank angle signal is in alignment with the crank.

Your crank signal is coming from the 4 wire sensor on the head, and you need to use a timing light to determine when the spark is being triggered relative to the crank by looking at the marks on the crank pulley. Its a simple matter of adjusting the cam sensor position until the timing reported in ecmlink matches the crank.
Thanks justin, you rock man. I will take this information and do my best to apply it....
 

99dsmer4g63

Proven Member
157
77
Sep 20, 2022
Shippensburg, Pennsylvania
I seen someone said to set your global to 30% on here a couple times. I also seen someone actually said -30%. It is important that you put -30%. If you go to the fuel tab and set -30% the car will run better. There is also a tool in that tab to do the calculations for -30% also.

-Daniel
 

Misterflipster

Proven Member
87
21
Apr 5, 2020
sioux falls, South_Dakota
I seen someone said to set your global to 30% on here a couple times. I also seen someone actually said -30%. It is important that you put -30%. If you go to the fuel tab and set -30% the car will run better. There is also a tool in that tab to do the calculations for -30% also.

-Daniel
Thank you! :) i will be changing it to -30% when i get home. Hopefully it will bring my idle down a bit. Sunday i will be going to oriellys or where ever to try and make the boost leak tester and do that next. Although the tuners supposedly checked for boost leaks and it should have been good to go.
 

99dsmer4g63

Proven Member
157
77
Sep 20, 2022
Shippensburg, Pennsylvania
Thank you! :) i will be changing it to -30% when i get home. Hopefully it will bring my idle down a bit. Sunday i will be going to oriellys or where ever to try and make the boost leak tester and do that next. Although the tuners supposedly checked for boost leaks and it should have been good to go.
I don’t think it will change the idle, maybe smoother but not lower. Could help with the hot start problems.

I didn’t see a fuel pressure regulator on your mod list. If you have one make sure it is set to 43psi with the vacuum line disconnected from it. After setting it reattach the vacuum line. This is done while the car is running.

This probably won’t bring the idle down either but just need to make sure everything is done right.

I also wouldn’t rely on the tuners boost leak test judging by the 3.5 hours they spent looking at the car and didn’t fix the fans they said they looked at even though you said it was just simply unplugged.

Go to Lowe’s or Home Depot for the boost leak tester. Everything is in the plumbing aisles.

-Daniel
 

Misterflipster

Proven Member
87
21
Apr 5, 2020
sioux falls, South_Dakota
I don’t think it will change the idle, maybe smoother but not lower. Could help with the hot start problems.

I didn’t see a fuel pressure regulator on your mod list. If you have one make sure it is set to 43psi with the vacuum line disconnected from it. After setting it reattach the vacuum line. This is done while the car is running.

This probably won’t bring the idle down either but just need to make sure everything is done right.

I also wouldn’t rely on the tuners boost leak test judging by the 3.5 hours they spent looking at the car and didn’t fix the fans they said they looked at even though you said it was just simply unplugged.

Go to Lowe’s or Home Depot for the boost leak tester. Everything is in the plumbing aisles.

-Daniel
@Justin DuBois @stev want to just tie everybody in as well, the previous owner got back to me about the wideband. Apparently its a uaego wideband, which was a different option on the settings, so i will have to change that as well

@Justin DuBois @stev want to just tie everybody in as well, the previous owner got back to me about the wideband. Apparently its a uaego wideband, which was a different option on the settings, so i will have to change that as well
@pauleyman @Dericsh
 

Dericsh

Supporting Member
1,462
693
Nov 25, 2002
Pearl River, Louisiana
Thank you! :) i will be changing it to -30% when i get home. Hopefully it will bring my idle down a bit. Sunday i will be going to oriellys or where ever to try and make the boost leak tester and do that next. Although the tuners supposedly checked for boost leaks and it should have been good to go.
Unfortunately what the invoice reads that they did, (spraying intake parts with brake cleaner) while that could possibly help identify a vacuum leak, it isn’t the best method for these cars and can’t be considered a replacement for a proper boost leak test.
 

Misterflipster

Proven Member
87
21
Apr 5, 2020
sioux falls, South_Dakota
Unfortunately what the invoice reads that they did, (spraying intake parts with brake cleaner) while that could possibly help identify a vacuum leak, it isn’t the best method for these cars and can’t be considered a replacement for a proper boost leak test.
Also this is the current firing order...but now that i think about it...since its 6 bolt swapped i thought it was supposed to be the like the right side......however couple weeks back i tried to set it up like the right side and lets just say, it wasnt very happy about it....can someone tell me why my 6 bolt block is set up for the left side if its considered 97+ eventhough its 6 bolt swapped?

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pauleyman

DSM Wiseman
8,300
2,847
Nov 19, 2011
oklahoma city, Oklahoma
Also this is the current firing order...but now that i think about it...since its 6 bolt swapped i thought it was supposed to be the like the right side......however couple weeks back i tried to set it up like the right side and lets just say, it wasnt very happy about it....can someone tell me why my 6 bolt block is set up for the left side if its considered 97+ eventhough its 6 bolt swapped?

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6 bolt vs 7 bolt doesn't matter. It matters what ecu, harness and such that you have. Ecu doesn't know what block it is. It isn't relevant.

Also this is the current firing order...but now that i think about it...since its 6 bolt swapped i thought it was supposed to be the like the right side......however couple weeks back i tried to set it up like the right side and lets just say, it wasnt very happy about it....can someone tell me why my 6 bolt block is set up for the left side if its considered 97+ eventhough its 6 bolt swapped?

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You've also mentioned you have a 99. You have ecmlink so you have a 95 or 96 ecu in the car. The labels in the diagram are for the car year. The left side would be correct for you assuming original harness, electronics etc.
 

steve

DSM Wiseman
14,874
1,722
Feb 3, 2002
Boulder, Colorado
I haven't looked at the latest few logs, have the direct maps been reset. There were changes to open loop thresholds, fuel and timing maps. Some of the changes looked risky.
 

Misterflipster

Proven Member
87
21
Apr 5, 2020
sioux falls, South_Dakota
You've also mentioned you have a 99. You have ecmlink so you have a 95 or 96 ecu in the car. The labels in the diagram are for the car year. The left side would be correct for you assuming original harness, electronics etc.
Okay thank you for clarifying. Just wanted to make sure that was all good to go (which u just confirmed. Although....the harness was swapped by previous owner (went from an auto to manual harness)

btw he says i need to find a part of a harness thats for the AC since it was swapped over? Can i get clarification on this "engine harness" portion i need for the ac?

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I haven't looked at the latest few logs, have the direct maps been reset. There were changes to open loop thresholds, fuel and timing maps. Some of the changes looked risky.
No i have to make the changes when i get home in the morning (currently at work) i know i had to change the idle switch to on with rolling option unchecked, wideband needs to be changed to uaego, and change global to -30% .....i believe thats it for now??

This is the list of the most recent changes that were made (goes back to like page 4 of the thread)

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steve

DSM Wiseman
14,874
1,722
Feb 3, 2002
Boulder, Colorado
I'm not sure you grasped what I meant about the direct maps. There is another set under the Direct Access button of parameters you can modify. The ones that have been modified are in bold and when you press the right most back and forward arrow you can see the original and modified values.

For example in this CrankingFuelAdj has been modified to add quite a bit of fuel at starting and may be part of your hot start difficulty. I'd suggest resetting all of the modified maps until you have the car better sorted. The TmngMaxOct map has some advanced timing that should be reviewed.

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pauleyman

DSM Wiseman
8,300
2,847
Nov 19, 2011
oklahoma city, Oklahoma
We are now 7 pages in on a car that won't idle. I have the following suggestions.

Boost leak test the car
Fix all leaks found by boost leak test
Read all of the ECM tuning how tos, suggestions etc on their webpage. There must be a general understanding of the functionality of ECMlink.
Why did you block off the FIAV in the first place?

This is NOT a personal shot but please tell us your mechanical skill level. You should have found several of these things yourself before you ever took it somewhere. Understandable if you do not have the knowledge base but you do seem to have skill concerning wiring, ohming components etc. Alternator, fans etc likely should've been found. You likely need to check every connector and make 100% sure everything is functional, at least to the best of your ability.

For what it's worth here is what i see.
Car idles high.
It is not possible for the car to idle above 1500rpm. ECU prevents that IF....IF it knows throttle is closed. So if you are "idling" above 1500 either something in the idle position circuit isn't right or the throttle isn't really closed. It was mentioned earlier that the car should surge. Here is why. IF you have leaks, incorrect BISS settings, ISC bad etc etc you could have more air coming into engine. Several of those possibilities are measured air so ECU adds fuel. At 1500rpm ecu cuts fuel because idle position switch (IPS) is closed. RPMS drop, ecu jumps in again, cycle repeats. That is the surge. In your case you're above 1500 rpm. Throw in multiple ECMtuning setting issues and as stated earlier in the thread it's amazing the car even starts.

Give us some rundown on what you know and help us help you. We're making ground.
 

99dsmer4g63

Proven Member
157
77
Sep 20, 2022
Shippensburg, Pennsylvania
One thing I’d like to add to Paul’s list of to dos for the idling. Ensure the sas has not been touched. Factory settings are 1 1/4 turn after the screw makes contact with the throttle plate. This should be done FIRST before any other biss adjustments, throttle cable adjustments and tps adjustments.

-Daniel
 

Misterflipster

Proven Member
87
21
Apr 5, 2020
sioux falls, South_Dakota
One thing I’d like to add to Paul’s list of to dos for the idling. Ensure the sas has not been touched. Factory settings are 1 1/4 turn after the screw makes contact with the throttle plate. This should be done FIRST before any other biss adjustments, throttle cable adjustments and tps adjustments.

-Daniel
TPS is done .63v, cable linkage adjusted and biss is 1 1/4 turn 👍🏻
 

Misterflipster

Proven Member
87
21
Apr 5, 2020
sioux falls, South_Dakota
We are now 7 pages in on a car that won't idle. I have the following suggestions.

Boost leak test the car
Fix all leaks found by boost leak test
Read all of the ECM tuning how tos, suggestions etc on their webpage. There must be a general understanding of the functionality of ECMlink.
Why did you block off the FIAV in the first place?

This is NOT a personal shot but please tell us your mechanical skill level. You should have found several of these things yourself before you ever took it somewhere. Understandable if you do not have the knowledge base but you do seem to have skill concerning wiring, ohming components etc. Alternator, fans etc likely should've been found. You likely need to check every connector and make 100% sure everything is functional, at least to the best of your ability.

For what it's worth here is what i see.
Car idles high.
It is not possible for the car to idle above 1500rpm. ECU prevents that IF....IF it knows throttle is closed. So if you are "idling" above 1500 either something in the idle position circuit isn't right or the throttle isn't really closed. It was mentioned earlier that the car should surge. Here is why. IF you have leaks, incorrect BISS settings, ISC bad etc etc you could have more air coming into engine. Several of those possibilities are measured air so ECU adds fuel. At 1500rpm ecu cuts fuel because idle position switch (IPS) is closed. RPMS drop, ecu jumps in again, cycle repeats. That is the surge. In your case you're above 1500 rpm. Throw in multiple ECMtuning setting issues and as stated earlier in the thread it's amazing the car even starts.

Give us some rundown on what you know and help us help you. We're making ground.
Alright, so when it comes to mechanical skills, i have worked on eclipses before but they have all been both stock and 7 bolts. This car purchased is far and a way completely different. Its a 6bolt swap, was an auto and manual swap, theres lots of things done to the car as far as upgrades...essentially i got handed someones problem (this guy also has a DIFFERENT built DSM so he not a noob, and he was having trouble as well) as far as ECMlink i am 2-3 days new into it never used before, we are starting to make ground but this car i had no idea on a starting point and what to check, these cars arent like any other that ive ever worked on...some things are more intricate that im used to(and i own an 05 benz)
 

99dsmer4g63

Proven Member
157
77
Sep 20, 2022
Shippensburg, Pennsylvania
The sas and biss are different. The sas is the screw that stops the throttle plate that the throttle cable is attached to. Loosen the lock nut and unscrew it until the screw is no longer touching the throttle plate stop. Unhook the throttle cable first. After the screw makes contact with the throttle plate go 1 1/4 turns. Then tighten the lock nut.

This needs to be done before any other throttle body adjustments. After the sas is set correctly move on to the rest of the adjustments. Throttle cable adjustment next. Then adjust the tps because it will need redone after messing with the sas. Which is why it is important to do this in the order I’m telling you to. Then the biss which should be about 2- 2 1/4 turns out after screwing in the whole way. Logged isc position should be hovering close to 30 on a warm engine.

-Daniel
 
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