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2G F5M33 rebuild (DSM FWD Transmission)

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Takophiliac

15+ Year Contributor
42
1
Oct 12, 2007
Davenport, Iowa
I'm rebuilding an f5m33 manual transmission from a 97 Talon TSi FWD.
The transmission that i got with the car had damaged input and intermediate shaft gears (the ones that are part of the shaft). I bought another transmission that has a worn 3-4 shift fork and shift lever.
My plan is to take the good parts (namely the shift lever and forks as well as synchros) from the old transmission and replace those same parts in the "new" transmission.
The problem I'm running into is finding the tools to put the needle bearings and roller bearings back onto the shafts. I have a bearing splitter, a shop press (20 tons. I hear thats more than i need for this), micrometer to measure the preload to select spacer rings, and a set of feeler guages to measure to select snap rings. The only tools i can't find are the MD998816, MD998818, and MD9998819 that are referenced in the shop manual(p. 22B-15) as "bearing installer adapter"s.
The tools i can't find are referenced by the manual as tools used to press the new bearings (needle and roller) onto the shafts in the transmission. SPX says that never made the tools, and maybe they didn't. But someone rebuilds these... where do they get their tools from?
Am i making this overcomplicated and there is something else that should be obvious to use? Best i can tell the sizes that i need are 30, 34, 38, and 40mm (guessing from the manual description and some measurements of the bearing races). For a few of them (the end of shaft roller bearings on the intermediate shaft, output shaft, and differential) some sockets seem like obvious work-arounds but I haven't got a clue as to where to find sockets that will meet the needs for the needle bearing races.

Help?
 
Sorry for the bump, just want to share some knowledge after resolving my own problem.

I did some research and (as you might guess from the date of the last post) a lot of thinking. I called a few shops for advice, however most of them said "we make our own tools" without much input as to what they make them from...
So again with the research, and i came across something called DOM (drawn over mandrel) tubing. DOM tubing is generally much stronger than pipe as the process involves some cold working. It also has a tendency to be much more concentric (the center of the tube actually being the center, as opposed to off-center) and being made out of sheet, (i think pipe is also, not sure) it can be made with just about any wall thickness and comes in a crazy range of sizes.
The sizes that i bought for this application (based on measurements of the parts removed from the shafts and the shafts themselves) were as follows (OD = Outer Diameter, a measurement across the tube from outside edge to outside edge. The other number is the wall thickness, basically the thickness of steel plate used to make the tube.)
1-1/4" OD x .083"
1-3/8" OD x .120"
1-1/2" OD x .120"
1-5/8" OD x .120"

Altogether i paid under 30 dollars for this set of tubes from Speedy Metals (they let you buy by the inch) for 6 inch tubes.

This set of tubes enables reassembly of both shafts as well as covering the sizes needed for the output shaft bearing fits (including the Pain-in-the-behind-otherwise bearing at the front end of the input shaft)

A couple other "Tricks" i'd like to share follow:
Removing the small roller bearing at the front end of the input shaft:
I found that as i disassembled my old transmission(the one i pulled out of my car) that if you do exactly as the shop manual says and pull up on the bearing race (as you do for just about all the other roller bearings) that it will end up deforming enough to let all the rollers fly out and possibly even damage the upper lip of the bearing race making removal pretty much impossible. (the cost of the new input shaft, plus the price of the other two shafts, which were damaged with chipped teeth was the reason i ended up buying a whole used transmission from someone here to give it another go) I attempted first to cut off the damaged bearing race using a dremel and a cut-off wheel, with no success. In the end I had cut most of the way through the race, but also damaged the part of the shaft next to the bearing that the seal fitted to as well as nudged a little scuff into the gear surface on the other side. When i disassembled the second transmission 3 things had changed. My first press i got from harbor freight and the peg on the bottom of that press wasn't attached squarely. As a result it always put pressure down about 3-4 degrees off of straight down. So i replaced that press with a somewhat more expensive model i got at Greg Smith. (1). The other differences were that when i was pressing the bearing off with a new splitter (2) i found that the cage was deforming again just like last time. So i released pressure and examined it, the rollers were very loose and about to fall out on their own again. After thinking about it, i grabbed the (i think) 4th gear from the broken transmission and checked it for size fit. It was very close, and with a few light taps of a hammer i was able to squeeze the bearing cage into the gear. I did this until the edge of the case was flush with the edge of the gear, and then put it back into the press. This time the whole thing came off without destroying itself. (3)

A tool to remove the outer bearing races (cups) in the transmission case:
I wasn't able to order the tool (claw) listed in the shop manual from SPX. They said they didn't make this one either. So with my handy dremel and a grinding wheel, i ground the end of the hook on a 2 jaw puller until it was maybe 3mm thick instead of the 7 or so that it was when i started. This basically gave me a right angled flat screwdriver. This could then be slid underneath the inside edge of the bearing cup (the case has two indents under the cups that this will fit in) and gently pry up on the edge. After i got it most of the way out, i attached the new "claw" back to its puller, and using a very small socket as a foot for the puller, removed the cup the rest of the way. It's clumsy, but it removed the cup without damage to the case. This will work for just about all the bearings except for the differential bearing cups and the front input shaft bearing (of course). For the differential bearings, i turned the pieces of the case over, and removed the seals. Then i slid the bottom of the claw into the slot in the case from the "bottom" of the bearing and tapped it out. The differential bearings only have 1 slot to fit the tool into each. The process ended up being similar for the front input shaft bearing. I first removed the seal (you really should replace this while you are in here anyway, would be a pity for it to go bad after you had it in your sight). Then i slid my tool down the opening the input shaft normally sticks out of and again got it under the bottom side of the bearing. A couple of taps back and forth on both sides of the cup and it too fell loose.

Removing the 5th gear lock nuts in such as way as to not feel like you are breaking anything:
The method described in the shop manual for unstaking the nuts for the 5th gears made me a little worried. After trying it i was more worried and in possession of a broken flat screwdriver. Apparently Japanese flat screwdrivers are made of tougher stuff. It occurred to me while i was doing this however, that the material had to be fairly soft (just my screwdriver was apparently softer) or you wouldn't be able to stake it in the first place. So i used a dremel and a grinding wheel (about 3mm thick, 1.5-2cm across) to weaken the corners of the staked in sections. I then bought a set of cheap punches (you need one later anyway) from harbor freight, there were like 10 in the set. I found one that was just about exactly the size, tho a tiny bit smaller, than the "key" slots in the end of the shafts. Then i ground half of the tip down flat at about a 45-60 degree angle (i'd say steeper is better) and the other half i ground down to the same edge (so it made a sharp point) but left it more round. Looking at it end on, its kinda like a car. Flat on the bottom, rounded on the top, both edges meeting in a flat point at the front, almost chisel like. Then after weakening the edges of the staked sections on the nuts, this tool can be placed flat side towards the shaft, into the "key" slots in the shaft and with a few much lighter taps, the nuts will be relatively easily unstaked. After this, if you have an impact wrench, you can dispense with the tool needed to hold the front end of the input shaft and just get a socket that fits the nuts (which you were going to need anyway). A couple of quick taps with the impact wrench and they will come right off.

Popping the case halves apart without damaging the mating surfaces:
(this is for the two large halves, not the "bowl" on the very end. That can be removed with a gentle tap of a piece of wood or a rubber mallet to the side.)
I was a bit unhappy that the shop manual doesn't at all describe how to do this. Thankfully, after some time poking around the case, the answer becomes pretty obvious. The case appears to be actually built with a pair of slots just for this. If you look around the edge of the case, they are big enough to fit a large pry bar or a crowbar into. One of them will be positioned right next to a bolt which is very low. If you put a socket on the bolt, however, you will get the perfect height and leverage to fairly easily pop the top loose from the bottom.

Everything else about disassembly is as it says in the manual.

Footnotes:
1.)The cheapest one with a gauge, as i was also worried that i was applying more pressure than was safe to be standing in front of. The press i got was their 12 ton press with gauge. Only thing i can say as advice for that press is assemble it, then apply about 7-8 tons of force to the press plates on the bed to get it into the right shape before using it. Since its all bolted, the top will need to settle up a bit so that its all square. The only problem with this press is that the bed is fairly narrow. I ended up using the bed from the harbor freight 20 ton press perpendicular to the bed on this for a couple pulls to get necessary space.

2.This one an OTC splitter i got on E-bay, much better than the POS i got at harbor freight the first time, which was almost damaged beyond use from the first disassembly, I don't remember what the model number of the one i got was, but its large, i think like 6" between the screws. I can get an exact measurement if anyone wants it

3.As an aside about using the cages for pressure, the manual indicates doing this for all other bearings except the rear end of the output shaft. It may look like you're supposed to pull on the cage again, but you aren't. On that bearing you actually get your splitter cinched right up under the bottom edge of the rollers themselves. This is where i pretty much destroyed my cheap splitter. The OTC splitter got a small indent in two places but the bearing was removed without any real damage to tools or parts. For that one bearing, the surface area available to provide upward pressure is very very small.
 
Very informative. Also very familiar as I just overhauled my 99 FWD tranny. Couple tips:

1) To remove/install the 36mm nuts on the input & intermediate shafts place the tranny in both 1st and 5th gears at same time to hold the shafts. 5th is done by removing the spring pin holding the shift fork, then the fork, and then sliding the syncro sleeve into 5th. Don't do something stupid like jamming a penny or rag between 5th gears teeth as some people say. It won't hold them solid enough and will just cause damage.

2) A source of shifter play is the select lever shoe (MD712919) which rides in the ring of the control shaft (the shift levers on the outside of the tranny where the shifter cables attach to). It wears down causing excessive shifter play. To give you something to compare to a new one is 0.468" thick (the ring slot is 0.475"). To further reduce shift play (only by a small amount) replace the interlock plate bolt (the end of it wears down from shifting). Since this bolt is on the outside you can do this even after the tranny is back on the car but make sure you don't touch the shifter while this bolt is out (also see post #7).

3) Many factory parts can be ordered cheaper through MitsubishiParts.com than the dealer. They have everything (even spacer shims).

4) NorthernTool.com has a cheap 12 ton press for $150, Harbor Freight has the same one for $130, and eBay has used 450lb scissors cradle tranny jack for $35 (new Central Hydraulics one at Harbor Freight for $83 item #39178-9VGA - http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=97194&d=1247441790). I used them both and was pleased. The scissors jack used with your air gun becomes a power lift for the tranny!

5) Take the time to do the preload spacer (shim) measurements as per manual (stay close as possible to the small end of the range). It will make all the difference in shifting. Most local tranny shops will never even do this.

6) Here's a great rebuild article with many pictures: Dre
 

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If you are replacing the bearings, just use the old bearings' inner races from the larger diameter bearings to install the smaller diameter bearings and use the outer races from the smaller bearings and a large socket for the larger bearings.

To get the Inner race free: Use a dremel and cut the cage off of the bearing and use the inner race.

Worked great for me. :thumb:
 
Sincerely, thanks for the info, but where were you guys in december? WTF
Seriously tho, thanks for the additional info, i read over the DRE tranny article several times and actually sent him an email about what to use to put the races back on. He was fairly prompt but equally vague as the shops. He said he used some deep sockets, and that was that. The sockets i had or had access to (oreillys and autozone) weren't long enough. I didn't bother him for more info. The tubes i got for $30 bucks worked fantastic during my test rebuild with the broken first tranny.

To get the Inner race free: Use a dremel and cut the cage off of the bearing and use the inner race.

I can't say i had any trouble with any of the inner bearing races aside from the smallest roller bearing at the front end of the input shaft. When the last one exploded on me, i tried using the inner race to remove it, but either it was too stuck or the inner bearing had been heat damaged. The lip of the inner race came apart in a few more pieces than it already had and there was no longer anything left to get the splitter under to apply pressure.

1) To remove/install the 36mm nuts on the input & intermediate shafts place the tranny in both 1st and 5th gears at same time to hold the shafts. 5th is done by removing the spring pin holding the shift fork, then the fork, and then sliding the syncro sleeve into 5th.

Yeah i think DRE mentioned that. Originally i intended to reuse the 5th gear parts, but as they were relatively cheap compared to my whole order, i went ahead and got new ones of those as well. Because i didn't know what i was going to replace and what i didn't want to damage (not that this should hurt anything) and since i was using an impact wrench, i skipped putting it in two gears so that the transmission could move unloaded with the wrench if it desired to.

2) To further reduce shift play replace the interlock plate bolt (the end of it wears down from shifting). Since this bolt is on the outside you can do this even after the tranny is back on the car.

This is interesting, i'm not sure that i quite understand what you're saying here. By interlock plate, i assume you mean the piece that prevents more than one fork to be out of neutral at any given time? The bolt in this piece that i removed from each tranny seem to be ok. Where does the damage normally occur and how does that cause it to be loose?

3) Many factory parts can be ordered cheaper through MitsubishiParts.com than the dealer. They have everything (even spacer shims).

I bought all my parts from mitsubishiparts.com as well. I did maybe go a little overboard tho, the only thing that will be old in my transmission when i get it back together will be the 3 case pieces, the 3 shafts, the differential, and the shift rod (if you wanna call it that. The single rod that drives the 3 forks). I don't know that it needed that much help, but i didn't want to be back in the transmission again for anything before my planned "ugprade" to awd. All total, just for parts, without spacers, retainer clips, seals, or the needle bearings for the shift rod with shipping my order was just at 1200 bucks. I figure another 100-200 tops for the remaining bits that the manual says not to reuse, and sealant. Mitsubishiparts.com lists a whole new transmission for just shy of 1900, so ... did i spend 700 in tools? at least. But its been a good learning experience, and i would hardly shy away from servicing a manual transmission in the future (especially now that i have most of the expensive tools, at least for this particular transmission).

4) NorthernTool.com has a nice 12 ton press for $150 (item #145212-1901) and eBay has used 450lb scissors cradle tranny jack for $35 (new Central Hydraulics one at Harbor Freight for $83 item #39178-9VGA). I used them both and was pleased.

I looked at that press, and i turned it down because of the design. The original one i got from harbor freight used the same design (bottle jack with a floating beam with a peg on it) and i was itchy about how it had like 3/4" of front to back play in it. The Atlas Equipment press i got at greg smith has a hydraulic ram instead of a bottle jack and the ram is flush mounted to the bottom of the top of the press. There's no room for play except in the ram itself or the bed slidng left to right on the pegs. That doesn't mean i think that the press you suggested won't work, i was just more comfortable with the "tightness" of the one i got. On the other hand, that scissor jack from harborfright is the exact one that i used to take the tranny out of the car. Works fantastic.

5) Take the time to do the preload spacer (shim) measurements as per manual. It will make all the difference in shifting. Most local tranny shops will never even do this.

This was something i was a little worried about (haven't done it yet, parts for shafts to arrive on thursday at which point i will make the measurements and then order spacers and retaining rings.) In Dre's rebuild article he talks about preloading so much it wouldn't shift. Any experience with this or was he just overzealous in his spacer selection? Also, its a bit of a shock that local tranny shops wouldn't do this. Wouldn't this cause excessive end play in the shafts and premature failure of the case, gears, and front seal? :notgood:
 
When I did mine I ended up just using the old shims that were in there. I had measured the clearance with solder and calculated accordingly. But once I ordered the shims and stuck them in there I couldn't even turn the shafts. So, I just said the hell with it and threw the old shims back in there. Maybe I used the wrong type of solder? I haven't put this trans back in the car yet because I figured the one that's in my car would crap out before I got the spare one done. But, it's still going strong.

I am kind of anxious to get it in there and see how good of a job I did.
 
Where was I? Well in December I was still busy rebuilding my own FWD tranny! ROFL

Yes the interlock plate bolt is the one you describe. It can wear down it's end from the interlock plate sliding back and forth against it when the shift lever is moved left-right. Too much wear and the adjacent shift lug neutral postion will move around a little. It doesn't account for very much sloppyness but every little bit helps right? And as long as you have the tranny torn apart why not check it? See attached pics.

Another larger source of shifter play is the select lever shoe (MD712919) which rides in the ring of the control shaft (the shift levers on the outside of the tranny where the shifter cables attach to). It wears down causing excessive shifter play. To give you something to compare to a new one is 0.468" thick (the ring slot is 0.475").

Local tranny shops (I asked many) don't adjust the preloads because it takes so much time and effort (sound familiar? The good ol American way - do things sloppy and skip steps so you can get more done per day. Mechanics can get fired if they don't meet their quota my taking too much time doing things properly - another American way). Every shop said the tranny will work fine w/o doing it and that the preloads shouldn't change anyway (they actually told me this OMG). Only if it's way off will they do it (when you can move the shaft significantly with your fingers after the halves are back together - again they told me this. :ohdamn:).
So it will work for awhile, maybe a year or two (just beyond warranty), and then you can bring it back and they will charge you to fix it again claiming you destroyed it with "excessive handling". Mine worked for 15 months (1yr warranty) and then the exact same problem came back.
The send-in shops (Jacks, TRE, Shep, etc) are good and do everything properly however.

I did the spacer (shim) measurement like the Mitsu factory manual said, got the correct spacers (stayed close as possible to the small end of the range), and now it shifts like butter. :thumb:

Yes the press I mentioned is just like you say, has lot of play. The price is way lower than the other better ones though and for someone on a budget it does ok (low price is the only reason why I mentioned it).

Isn't that scissors jack great? Used with your air gun it becomes a power lift for the tranny! http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=97194&d=1247441790
 

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Awesome pic.
Thx again for the replies, both.

I don't think i can use the original shims from the transmission in question, or at least, i wouldn't feel comfortable doing so. The intermediate shaft had a bit of play in it that i want to eliminate. It might turn out that after refitting, they happen to be the right size, tho i'm not holding my breath about it. On that same line, i mentioned in my post how i got the bearing cups out, did you guys do something different? I'm a bit worried that if i trial and error too much that i might end up causing some wear on the case where the cups go from taking them in and out.
Any ideas on what is binding up that causes the transmission to not shift if over-preloaded? My guess would be that the shifting problem would be caused by the shafts not being able to spin? Someone should be able to confirm or debunk that pretty rapidly if they tried to turn the shafts after getting the main case pieces together.
Its kind of worrisome that they told you that they don't do the work on transmissions... One thing if they just don't but to be so forthcoming about doing a sh!tty job really says something.
 
For some of the outer races I had to bang on the case while prying them up with a screwdriver. Most of them slid in and out relatively easily. I remember one being a major pain in the butt. I tried heating them up then cooling them quickly to shrink the race so it would slide out. But neither worked. So I resorted to getting a vibration going by banging on the case and slightly pulling up on them with a screwdriver. Major PITA.
 
...I had measured the clearance with solder and calculated accordingly. But once I ordered the shims and stuck them in there I couldn't even turn the shafts.... Maybe I used the wrong type of solder?
Make sure you don't use solder that expands after you crush it or you will get the wrong measurement. Manual says to use 0.063"D but not having that I used 0.055" flux core silver solder and got good measurements. I tryed solid solder first but kept getting inconsistant measurements so I reasoned it was expanding and switched to the flux core.
 
Make sure you don't use solder that expands after you crush it or you will get the wrong measurement. Manual says to use 0.063"D but not having that I used 0.055" flux core silver solder and got good measurements. I tryed solid solder first but kept getting inconsistant measurements so I reasoned it was expanding and switched to the flux core.

I was able to find .062" silver solder at radio shack. The part number for this solder is 6400026. I used this stuff to check my preloads and endplay and it worked awsome. I just followed the DRE tech article and had consistant readings each time. :thumb:
 
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