Engine Update #2 *WITH PICS*

[4g63awdtalon]

well a few things,

why do you have stock exhaust, next what do you have for fuel management. you have 390cc injectors and a turbo fuel pump correct and nothing to manage it with. you car could be faster before you start taking it apart. dont have transonic build it

 

[talons95]

so, no go to transonic. how about sublime

 

[Daedalus]

Yea I have a stock exhaust... It isnt staying on much longer.


The 390's and Turbo Fuel pump are NOT installed. They wont be put in until I have E-Manage in the car.

Transonic did a great job at a much cheaper price than Sublime offered. The custom fabrication looks factory and matches my color scheme dead on. They know their crap and would take any car to them to have their opinion.

Sublime is also VERY good. They know DSM's and I plan on having Mike tune my new build up on their dyno. Both shops are great; you cant go wrong.

 

[StreetSleeper34]

Be patient, do your research on what needs to be done. Every aftermarket componant, and upgrade that you do to your engine needs to compliment the others. I am still adding stuff here and there, doing adjustments where needed, all the while making some progress. My next step is increases incoming air by adding a GM MAF with MAFT and creating a custom ram air system. Then comes the ECU upgrade along with the MSD DIS II to increase the spark all through the power band. Once this is complete I will probably need to upgrade my fuel system. But you will realize that it is a step by step process with not too many results right away. It will all come together once everything is set up properly. You will however lose a small amount on your bottom end if you are looking for higher rpms. right now i lose power at 8500 rpm's, and it will get there quicker than sh*t, but off the line, until I get to about 3500, she will drag compared to a stock DSM. But if running redline through every shift, it should never drop below 5000 through your gears, so that is where you want the power anyway. by the time I get through second, I have a car length on a stock DSM. Just some words of encouragement for you. It can be done. I will have track slips and dyno results by the end of the summer to prove that it can!

 

[92awddsm]

Be patient, do your research on what needs to be done. Every aftermarket componant, and upgrade that you do to your engine needs to compliment the others. I am still adding stuff here and there, doing adjustments where needed, all the while making some progress. My next step is increases incoming air by adding a GM MAF with MAFT and creating a custom ram air system. Then comes the ECU upgrade along with the MSD DIS II to increase the spark all through the power band. Once this is complete I will probably need to upgrade my fuel system. But you will realize that it is a step by step process with not too many results right away. It will all come together once everything is set up properly. You will however lose a small amount on your bottom end if you are looking for higher rpms. right now i lose power at 8500 rpm's, and it will get there quicker than sh*t, but off the line, until I get to about 3500, she will drag compared to a stock DSM. But if running redline through every shift, it should never drop below 5000 through your gears, so that is where you want the power anyway. by the time I get through second, I have a car length on a stock DSM. Just some words of encouragement for you. It can be done. I will have track slips and dyno results by the end of the summer to prove that it can!

I dont really have much faith in what you say just from looking at your profile. Here ya go

Engine InternalsComplete port and polished head along with intake, throttle body and fuel rail, rebuilt block milled 40 over, Eagle rods and pistons making 10:1 compression, Top Line crank, aluminum oversized valves and push rods, turbo cams, adjustable cam gears


Did anyone ever tell you that the 4g63 doesnt have pushrods and the dont make aluminum valves, And how did you port your fuel rail?


Keep it up Daedalus. You will get there. And I would also recheck cam timing like said by someone else earlier. Good luck

 

[Daedalus]

streetsleeper-

Did you upgrade your retainers? I'm wondering how you get to 8500. I dont doubt that you do i'm just wondering how you removed fuel cut, etc.

My stage 3 P/P head and ferra 1mm o.s. valves get here next monday and i'm considering upgrading the springs to rev it out to 8500 but dont know about removing fuel cut, etc.

 

[leakyfaucet]

Did anyone ever tell you that the 4g63 doesnt have pushrods and the dont make aluminum valves, And how did you port your fuel rail?

Don't forget how he "milled" his block 40 over.

That and the difference between NT and turbo cams is negligible.

I've been thinking a higher output carburetor might be in your future, StreetSleeper34...

 

[StreetSleeper34]

streetsleeper-

Did you upgrade your retainers? I'm wondering how you get to 8500. I dont doubt that you do i'm just wondering how you removed fuel cut, etc.

Daedalus, I updated my profile to mention that I do have titanium retainers. I suppose I should've fixed my profile months ago after I did my research, but never got around to it. I didn't realize that people relied on what is written so much, I believe that a layman must think most posts are written by people with IQ's less than 70 with all the grammatical errors that are displayed. Very interesting. I was simply offering words of encouragement to a fellow n/a owner. God forbid I get embarrassed by someone who thinks that they are a n/t wiseman! I am also experiencing fuel cut, but hoping that the GM MAFT will help with that a little, otherwise I will, as mentioned before, upgrade my fuel system. The rpms race up until I hit the cut, so I am anxious to see the results once that is corrected. One step at a time though. I have faith that you will get everything working for you. Just be patient. Good luck!

 

[Daedalus]

when do you hit fuel cut? I thought it was like at 7200rpms?

 

[1fast97gsx]

when do you hit fuel cut? I thought it was like at 7200rpms?

You might be thinking of the rev limit ... fuel cut can happen at almost any rpm.

 

[StreetSleeper34]

I don't reach fuel cut until 7800 rpm's, I just checked it last night. I wanted to make sure that it was fuel cut and not rev limit. I am positive that it is fuel cut, because like I said, the rpm's race to that number then dies (not literally), usually rev limit struggles to get there and then you lose power before ever reaching it. I am working on finding the best way to fix that. I am sure that fuel upgrade, S-AFC, and the whole nine yards are necessary.

 

[Daedalus]

yea i was thinking of rev limit... how do you get past that?

 

[StreetSleeper34]

That is where internal work needs to be done. Better performance parts means that the engine can handle higher rpms and will get you there much quicker.

 

[leakyfaucet]

God forbid I get embarrassed by someone who thinks that they are a n/t wiseman!

You don't have to be an NT wiseman to know OHC motors don't have pushrods. Come on.

 

[Daedalus]

That is where internal work needs to be done. Better performance parts means that the engine can handle higher rpms and will get you there much quicker.

Right I understand that... My head for my new project is a direct copy of a Bushur Stage 3 w/1mm Ferra O.S. valves and copper guides, and i'm considering purchasing ti retainers and springs to be able to rev out that high without valve float. Fuel cut wont be a concern with the ugraded fuel system and e-manage, but what I am wondering is how, electronically you were able to rev out to 8500. Did you eprom it w/a reflashed chip that didnt have a rev limiter, or what? B/C, unless i'm mistaken you would be limited to a 7200RPM limit just like me right now...

 

[tbTalonES94]

The 1g N/T dont have a rev limiter to my knowledge. I have revved my car to 7500 on accident and it went all the way up with no problems. StreetSleeper definatly can rev to 8500. I rode and drove his car and it has absolutly no problems reving that high. The fuel cut would be your only problem but that can happen in any rpms like someone already said. There is no need to bash on someone that put something wrong in their info. His car has those things done to it and it can rev that high so im the witness so stop bashing on him. Daedalus keep it up with you build and tuning. I myself have done a bit to my N/T engine but being that my brother has a fast 1g tsi i am going to the turbo route because i planned to right when i bought the car. I am going full out turbo though with 2g pistons and 255 fuel pump and everything. Its goin on the 26th-31st and i plan on making a huge forum about it. I would not turbo your car unless you get the turbo pistons because then you are just limited to the amount of boost you can run and trust me you will want more!

 

[Thunderskull]

The 1g N/A does have a rev limiter just like it's turbo brethern. The only way your buddy could rev to 8500 is if he was running an aftermarket ECU. It's not fuel cut. Fuel cut happens when the MAS detects more air coming in then it is able to supply fuel to. It is a predetermined amount that can be avoided by tricking the MAS into believing there is less air coming into the engine then there actually is. Hence, the fuel cut defensor. N/A DSMs don't have that problem. Us hitting fuel cut is wishful thinking.

 

[92awddsm]

Daedalus, I updated my profile to mention that I do have titanium retainers. I suppose I should've fixed my profile months ago after I did my research, but never got around to it. I didn't realize that people relied on what is written so much, I believe that a layman must think most posts are written by people with IQ's less than 70 with all the grammatical errors that are displayed. Very interesting. I was simply offering words of encouragement to a fellow n/a owner. God forbid I get embarrassed by someone who thinks that they are a n/t wiseman! I am also experiencing fuel cut, but hoping that the GM MAFT will help with that a little, otherwise I will, as mentioned before, upgrade my fuel system. The rpms race up until I hit the cut, so I am anxious to see the results once that is corrected. One step at a time though. I have faith that you will get everything working for you. Just be patient. Good luck!

I wasnt trying to bash you but I always look at vehicle profiles of people giving advise. If your profile is full of sh(it, usually, you are too. Im by no means a n/t wiseman and I never claimed to be. You should have done your research and know what you have before you put it in your profile.

 

[tbTalonES94]

I understand what fuel cut is but ive had 4 1g dsms to my disposal and they all can rev over 7200 no problem turbo or not turbo. I really dont think there is a rev limiter for a 1g

 

[92awddsm]

My stock limiter was 7600 before the ecu upgrade. 92 turbo awd with eprom ecu.

 

[tbTalonES94]

Well i got a 94 N/A without the EPROM and i can rev it as far as i want untill something blows up? No modifications have been done to my ECU that i am aware of. An old guy owned my car before me??

 

[TimG]

This thread is stained with little lies and myths. I want to voice my opinion on personal experience with 1G N/A DSMs. I did drive and modify one for over 16 months.

First, in my turbo days or n/a days, I have never hit a rev limiter. My tach and logger have reached over 8000rpms. I had no issues. In fact I didn't mean to hit such a high rpm. My gas pedal got stuck after I mashed the throttle for the log, the engine revved 8000rpm until I turned the ignition off.

Second, with my old n/t engine, I had performed various mods to squeeze out HP. Squeeeeeeeze is what I did. My mods included: Custom 2.5" cold air intake system to the passenger fog lamp (Real cold air), decked head to raise compression (done after timing belt snap accident), turbo cams, no balance shafts, ported stock exhaust manifold, 8.5mm plug wires, NGK plugs (one range hotter), advanced base timing, rewired fuel pump and my SAFC tuned with the logger. I had many more mods as well but it is all a vague memory, thank God. 16.0 1/4 mile time and just barely beating Si civics is not worth all the hassle. No torque is right. And I don't want to wind up the 4G63 to 7000rpms just to get a good pull.

Third, just so everyone realizes, fuel cut is like hitting a brick wall. When I was n/a and tried to mash the throttle in 5th gear doing 205km/h, I wondered why I wouldn't go any faster. My primitive experience at the time yielded the conclusion I was hitting fuel cut. In actuality, it was just my car was slow as a n/a. I hit fuel cut on my turbo motor at 7200rpms in 3rd gear on a cold night once. I immediately thought my timing belt slipped. Yet after my engine kepts on, I realized what happened. Just for everyones reference, FUEL CUT IS LIKE BRICK WALL HITTING.

My person opinion for the conclusion. Come over to the dark side. It isn't that bad over here. Turbo is the way to go. Even on the stock n/t block, you can run 11psi all day long just as long as your SAFC is tuned nicely for 0 knock and lower timing advance.

Yet if you really want to try to tune some HP out of your n/t engine you'll want to tune for timing advance/retarding and play around with what feels good. Your fuel trims (low, med and high) tell you a lot of the story as well. Post some of those numbers.

 

[tbTalonES94]

Thank you TimG. I knew there was no rev limiter. Oh by the way i will be letting you know how the "Dark Side" project is commin once i start it in about 2 weeks! What compression you runnin right now?

 

[Colossus]

Don't forget, if turbo is evil to you, there's always nitrous.

 

[TimG]

Rebuilt stock turbo bottom end; 7.8:1. I did run the 14b on the 9:1 bottom end and had no problems until my balance shaft belt snapped and ate my timing belt. So I just dropped in a fresh 4G63T. EVO3 16G @ 19psi on the n/t chassis/tranny and no problems... yet.