Engine Update #2 *WITH PICS*

[Daedalus]

ITS ALLLLIIIIIIIVVVVVVEEEE!!!!

The car cranked up tonight on the first try. The thing vibrates a lot due to the motor mounts, balance shaft removal, and 264's. But i'm just not used to it.

We only ran it for about 30 seconds because we still have to find belts that fit the accesories (extreme's didnt fit jack squat).

There was a small fuel leak on one of the injectors, but we are replacing all of the seals tommorow anyway. The oil light stays on b/c the JDM engines dont have an output for this sensor (not that we could find anyway.) We are going to trouble shoot that tommorow and possible solutions. We still need to make mounting brackets for the battery and the coil pack.

But more or less it is done. I'm going over tommorow around 4 to pick it up and pay the bill, and take it for a nice test drive to trouble shoot any possbile problems.

And now the long awaited picture. I only snapped one, sorry. More will come when the damn thing isnt so dirty.

 

[Mike1992]

not to shabby, i wanna know how that beast runs!

 

[Blueheat23]

Very cool. I'm glad to see more of us 1G N/Aer's build on, in my opinion, a great engine platform than try to go turbo. (Also please note that if for some reason it does get brought up, my name, Blueheat23, was originally my buddy Daves and he had the 92 NT gone turbo. Just to clear that up!)

Also, are you planning on putting in high comp pistons? With the right cams and valve train work, a higher CR is where the power is to be had from these engines. My next "stage" of building on this motor is the ignition and a 10:5.1 CR with some custom Ross'.

 

[punishment]

Very nice. In the jdm engine in my eclipse I ended up using an electric oil pressure gauge, which comes with the sending unit you screw in where the factory one would go. Keep us posted on how she runs.

TC

 

[Daedalus]

Yea, I might have to do something like that to get an oil pressure reading. It pretty low on my things to do list.

In terms of pistons, i'm not going to touch em. I know there are power gains to be had there but I have no want to tear this thing apart after getting it back together. If i was gonna go hard core I would've put a stroker kit and pistons on the last rebuild, but I need money for college and a laptop. I think the stock internals will be enough to support my upgraded head that is in the works.

 

[miamieclipse]

ohhh ahhh very pretty

Hey its not too dirty :laugh:

 

[Daedalus]

Just got home from transonic.

Its late, i'm tired...

Initial Impression... ITS REALLY SLOW!

Slower than the car in stock form... But the thing has only run for about 1 hour, the lifters are just starting to get some oil, and the ecu is hasnt started to "relearn" the new engine parameters yet.

I'll post up more info tommorow when I can see straight and i'm not so pissed off.

 

[Mike1992]

Slow? Watcha mean?

 

[Daedalus]

no torque what so ever.....

 

[Mike1992]

no torque what so ever.....

What do you think the problem is?

 

[Blueheat23]

Lol the car has only been run for an hour, the ecu takes days to relearn fuel trims after it's been reset. The ecu is running off the stock maps it came with from the factory (very rich.) After a few days, and some more run time...it'll be a huge difference.

 

[leakyfaucet]

Don't expect any torque down low. You just ported your head and put in some wild cams, didn't you? That just raised the powerband about 2-3k!!! If you didn't wind that thing to about 8k RPM, of course it will be slower than stock. Don't expect to gain any noticable amount of power from the ECU relearning.

What you're doing is very interesting, if a bit questionable. I'm interested in your progress!

 

[Thunderskull]

You might want to port and polish the stock intake manifold and put it back on. Those runners on that intake manifold are way too short for a n/a vehicle. That's probably where you're losing all your torque from. Also, what have you done for exhaust? As for the ECU relearning the fuel curves, it adapts while you're driving. By about 15 minutes after starting the vehicle, the ECU will have a good idea of how it wants to distribute the fuel. After that, it will constantly adapt to the information it receives from the sensors. Also, how are you regulating fuel, and do you have cam gears? Advancing the timing and adding some fuel pressure may also help with your low end torque problem. You also might want to think about an EGT gauge and datalogger. But definately ditch that intake manifold.

Good luck

 

[Daedalus]

All right, here is the official review. This is gonna be long, so if you dont like to read STOP NOW!

The Story:
I stoped by transonic racing around 7pm last night. The car was getting the custom brackets made for coil packs and battery powerdercoated red to match the car (they look very nice btw). After installing the coil pack and double checking everything we cranked her up. The noise was intolerable. The lifters made a horrible racket and the new intake added to the loudness. We let the car warm up to normal operating temp so the fans would kick on (wanted to make sure they worked). After this, brandon (owner of transonic) took the car out for a quick spin. He came back and pulled it back in the shop. The oil was drained, oil filter removed, and new products were added. The lifters had quieted but the ecu still hadnt decided what the hell was going on.

The clutch pedal was soft and engaged about 3 inches from the floor. The idle was all over the place and still is. I left transonic around 10:30 and headed to the gas station. The tank was allmost empty from the last fill up 2 months ago. Brandon advocates a harsh break in because he says they run stronger and longer after that (not the clutch, the engine). So instead of babying it I took it up to redline a couple of times. To my dismay the damn thing wouldnt get up and move. Granted I thought that with all the shit, cams, manifold, intake, pullies, balance shaft removed, that it would have more pull than in stock form. I WAS WRONG.

Driving Impressions:
It has no torque, less than stock easily. It does "pull" all the way to 7K, and it seems my optimal range is now from 4k and above. The engine makes the most power past 5k to 7k and when it is up there I will admit it sounds like a beast. Its allmost sounds like vtec on a honda kicking in when it hits 5k. The sound of the engine changes and the show starts. I am betting the cams are to thank for whatever power is left.

There are no negative effects from the underdrive pully. The amp and stereo pump it out just like before with no diming of lights, etc. The A/C runs fine and doesnt bog the car more than normal.

So just what the hell is wrong?
Well this morning I took the car for a short 3 mile jaunt around the town. It does seem to be making more power now than last night. I still have only put on 4.5miles since I left transonic. I am going out tonight to put some miles on her and hopefully get the ecu thinking correctly.

I am allmost positive that the intake manifold is to blame. We checked to make sure the tb was opening all the way and it is. The manifold was made for boost and it was a mistake to put it on. To switch it back would be a massive pain but it might be needed. Our (transonic and I) hypothesis is this: We are getting more than adequate air flow into the engine, but it isnt moving out of the engine fast enough with the stock header and stock exhaust system.

So what the hell am I going to do?
The first course of action would be to stay all motor. If I choose this route the upgrade path over the next month will consist of the following:
- Punishment Racing Header
- Punishment Racing Intake MAFT
- Magnaflow 2.25" High Flow Cat
- Remus "O2" Twin tip muffler
- Custom 2.25" piping
- ECU+ Engine Managment

The goal obviously here is to get the chamber to clear faster and flow more efficently. However, we dont see this as making up for the torque problems currently incountered. Other options discussed were a stroker kit and high compression pistons which would definatly help but would cost a pretty penny.

The other evil option
Brandon and I were staring at the engine thinking of ways to get it to be relativly fast. He suggested the evil word that I dispise hearing... TURBO. After discussion I began to come around to the idea of putting one on. It would be more or less reliable (at low boost levels that i would run) and put the cams and intake manifold to good use. If this option is pursued the upgrade path over the next month would look like this:
- 14B or T25 turbo
- Greddy E-Manage
- All misc parts for turbo...
- Upgraded pistons or piston rings (not sure if this is needed to run 6-7psi)

The total w/install would be around 1000.00 which seems pretty fair. I never thought I would consider this, but I actually am. Driving my car now is depressing and has me thinking why oh why did I spend so much money on it to get these horrible results.

One thing I would like to point out is that the car would be MUCH faster with a stock intake manifold so if you are reading this in the future thinking of modding your car as I have you will get great results... just leave your intake manifold alone!!!

Anyway, that is my impression and review of the install. I will keep you updated as to my decision.

 

[punishment]

Have you done any datalogging yet?

 

[atblacktalon92]

thats sad to hear...maybe u need fuel pressure regulator adjustments or cam timing adjustments. Hope u'll figure something out to get that bi*** in top shape.

 

[Mike1992]

I say swap out the intake manifolds and give it a run. If yet still not satisfied go with a header and 2.5" mandrel bent exhaust with a 2.5" high flow cat. From there its really up to you. but thats what i'd do.... Sorry to hear its not what you had exected, i feel the same way after all my mods

 

[Thunderskull]

Definately swap out that intake manifold. Did you port the throttle body? If yo did, make sure that there are no gaps inbetween the throttle plate and the inside wall of the throttle body. You might as well stay all motor and bolt on the new header/exhaust. You'll have to upgrade the exhaust anyway. Also, you might see better results when you start tuning. You may be running too rich which could cause your bog down and explain why you aren't getting power till the rpms get to about 5k. I'd do the ECU + first in addition to the high flow cat. Also, datalog that beast. You've modified the airflow and fuel enough so that the stock ECU is likely having a very hard time with it. You need to be able to see what's going on, and tune the vehicle appropriately. You also need an AFPR also so that you can do additional fuel tuning. Don't go with a B&M Commandflo unless you do like I did and attach it to a fuel pressure regulator for a turbo vehicle. The way I did it lets me lower the fuel pressure below what's considered stock for a n/a 1G DSM. Though I'm with you in that 75% of your problem is your intake manifold. Also, the engine can only pull air in so fast unless you decide to go stroker or do some headwork. Leave that turbo alone.

 

[Daedalus]

Thanks for all of the replies. I have driven it about 30 miles so far just around town tonight. Damn that thing is friggin loud. The idle sticks at 2k unless I jab the throttle and rev it past 3k and let off... then it sets down around 1k and idle surges. I was doing this at a stoplight and some guy in his new X5 thought I wanted to race. He took off and I stayed put. No need embarassing myself.

Looks like the new clutch did in my master cylinder. I gotta get a new one. Pedal feel is horrible. Lighter than stock.

I'm gonna be honest; i'm heavily considering turboing the bi***. The only thing stoping me is that I would feel like a traitor to you guys. The way I figure it is whether I do head work and exhaust or I do a turbo its all gonna cost me around 1k. So I am trying to decide what will give me the most bang for the buck. The turbo, if done correctly could work very well with the cams and intake manifold. But i'm afraid of all of the boost problems that CAN be associated with them.

*side question* Does anyone know what a safe psi is to run on stock pistons and piston rings? 6 psi?

 

[Thunderskull]

Have you tested the idle speed control motor to make sure it's not fubared? Also, did you check the BISS screw? A fubared ISC can cause your car to bog down. I've had it happen to mine. Have you checked for fitment on the intake manifold? Maybe the gasket's not sealing properly. The master cylinder dying on a clutch upgrade is pretty common. Mine bought it when I replaced my stock clutch. Don't worry about getting a new one. Just rebuild your old one. It's real easy to do, dirt cheap, and it will perform like new. It's a 1 hour job at most. The pressure from the heavier clutch blew out the worn out seal on the clutch master cylinder.

 

[Mike1992]

6 psi is like max on NA stock internals, i thought abouu it to, but why run 6psi when ya can just swap in different pistons and rings and go with a full turbo setup ya know?

 

[talon94es]

Crap. Sorry to hear about the "issues". Hope you get them worked out and you see some potential from your ride.. If not, call MTV and ask them to pimp your ride.

 

[punishment]

I really think you probably just have some minor issues that need to be worked out, which would be common given the amount of mods you did at once, I had similar problems with my gsx last year, when you make a bunch of changes at once it can be tough to tune and diagnose problems, but I hope you stick with it. I think the car has real potential.

TC

 

[Daedalus]

I'm gonna wash the dirty bish today (2 months of filth look nasty) and then do some troubleshooting.

The ISC is a 1 year old "revised" model from Mitsu that was purchased new with a brand new throttle body at the same time. Yes that is allmost 1000.00 on two parts thank you very much. I suspect that the car probably needs the ISC to be reset but we dont want to adjust the idle until the ECU decides where it wants to idle at. Durrently I have driven 32 miles since wed. so its still a young engine.

I have checked for leaks around the TB and manifold time and time again b/c this was one of the first places we thought might have a problem.

I know the car is running rich as hell and thats not good, but the ecu doesnt know whats going on yet. I am going to datalog a run or two later today before work. I will post up the runs hopefully before work.

I'll keep you guys updated!

 

[Thunderskull]

Yeah, don't give up. This car has some potential. You just need to do some fuel tuning and ditch that intake manifold.