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focusedrage

20+ Year Contributor
1,053
0
Aug 3, 2002
Laytonsville, Maryland
WOW, has any one heard of level ten products? they make upgrade kits for our automatics that include torque converters, shift kits, and a tcu that suposedly alows selectable shifting, and they claim that with thier stuf an auto will shift faster then stick. that would be pretty slick to add padles to my talon LOL. www.levelten.com
 
1) automatics always shift faster than sticks 2) automatics with a converter designed to work with the modifications that are performed to your car are ALWAYS going to be faster than a stick (this means no off the shelf, cookie cutter converters, of course) 3) beware of any manufacturer that is NOT designing your converter for YOUR car (you should have to fill out a sheet with detailed information about your car to get the right thing). Beware of hype, I've been in the trans business for 15 years and have seen alot of it. I'm not going to tell you what to do, but I do suggest that you shop around and talk to a few performance trans shops before you make a decision on what, if anything, you do with your trans. After you contact a few, you will be able to detrermine for yourself what is best for you.
 
cool, good advice, what of the "manual automatic" tcu? is this even posible like they advertize?
 
Yes , there have been diagnostic devices out for over a decade that allow the technician to work the transmission independantly from the computer (in other words it enables the user to determine of a complaint is due to a vechicle electronic malfunction or the result of a bad transmission). So the idea of a manual controller is nothing new, I myself have been working on a similar device but haven't had the time or energy to complete the project. I simply don't get many requests for it. Most of my customers prefer a real good converter, and a real good built trans that is modified be as strong as possible and have much quicker shifts. The average racer, as well as the average street car owner prefers their automatic to be, well AUTOMATIC. There are also other concerns with "manual only" modes on a street driven vehicle, but I don't have the space to explain it here. PM me if you want more info.
 
The only hard part about making the manual shifter would be the control of the PCSV. The shifts are controled by 2 solenoids (solenoid A & B) just turn them off and on to shift the tranny.
 
You are basically correct. The l/u sol (dampner clutch control valve) and the PCSV need to be controled in addition to the shift sols.. One of the problems that exists is that dsm transmissions have a system for controlling shift quality that differs greatly from other manufacturers systems- "reducing pressure" is employed at the exact moment of the shift (ie line pressure is dropped at the instant of the gear change to provide shift quality that is appropriate for the given throttle opening). Most other types of transmissions simply raise line pressure commensurate to throttle opening. The problem that exists is that people controlling their own line pressure tend to subject transmissions to sustained high or low pressure conditions that are not conducive to durability. Proper pressure control by a computer is important in either system, but is all the more critical with the dsm type of pressure control. Think about the dynamics of a 2-3 shift in a Mitsubishi type unit- the band must release as the front clutch is applying, the relationship between these two events are critical. If the "shift timing" is off you will either have a flare (engine run up during a shift) or a "bind up" (both elements applied at once for an instant). (The term "bind up" is often refered to as "overlap"). A flare will damage friction material and a bind up will damage friction material and hard parts. Either way, you lose. I could go on with the other problems that there are with manual control, but I think that I would run out or room in this forum.(Lets just say that I almost went through a windshield when someone hit the wrong switch on me). You can PM me if you need more info. on manual control or other trans questions.
 
I know how a mitsu tranny works. I have built probally around 30 KM's. I work for a Dodge Hyundai dealer. We do not get many of them in these days. Most of the cars we get in have the next gen tranny.

The shifter box is fun to play with but if you down shift with it is rough. I would hate to have someone turn it the wrong way. Do you think there would be a problem with just turning the DCS once you get going and just leaving it on?
 
I guess you never felt a shift with the lock up clutch on!
 
I've done it before and shifted at high rpms it was a little harsh. But this was also at full line pressure.
 
Originally posted by transdude
I guess you never felt a shift with the lock up clutch on!

Transdude,

What controls the rpm shift points on a auto DSM, is it the tranny ECU? It would be great if the rpm shift points could be adjusted to shift a little higher like 500 - 1k rpm. Are their any companys out their that are currently doing this mod? Are would this be detrimental to the tranny?

thanks
iron
 
The TCU would need to be reprogramed to change shift points. The TCU looks at the TPS, pulse generators and VSS for input on when to shift.
 
Is it proper protocall to respond to two people in one response? I'm going to do it anyway! First, in reference to a shift with the converter clutch on- all bad, no good. Out of the nearly 300 different types of transmissions that I have worked on (yes there are that many different units out there) I can not think of a single one that is designed to shift with the converter locked, and trust me this is for a good reason.(It is analogos to shifting a manual without de-clutching). The only reason anyone would have for attempting to manually control a trans would be to make it work differently, so let's not make it work worse in the process. Answer number two- yes the ecm controles all shifts (up and down), reducing pressure and converter clutch application. As far as an aftermarket computer that allows us to alter shift points? I haven't used one, but that is not to say that they don't exist. Tell you what, give me day and I will research it and pm you with info.
 
Originally posted by CraigB
The TCU would need to be reprogramed to change shift points. The TCU looks at the TPS, pulse generators and VSS for input on when to shift.

CraigB is there a means of this type of alteration to a DSM controller at the dealership level? I've never needed to have one "flashed" but I'm curious as to whether it is possible. I always assumed that they had an antiquated system and that they were not reprogramable. I hope I'm wrong and that it is possible.
 
We have only been able to flash program TCU's on Hyundais since 99. Before that we just replaced the TCU's.
 
I figured that, early style controllers from many manufacturers are not very advanced, and as much as I hate to say it, the Asian ones are normally the worst of them.
 
Correct me if I'm wrong here. Doesn't the KM series tranny lock up the converter in every gear already? And it never goes to a 100% lockup. I was told in training that the dcs was on a duty cycle. Now I have not watched it while driving to see what happens when it shifts.
 
Although they are applied with a duty cycle solenoid, modern KM series units lock up 100% eventually (it is only during apply and release that the sol. is modulated) the length of time that the sol. is turned on by the TCM determines the degree of lock up. It was only the early design units which lacked a damper plate assembly in the converter that would never fully lock up (this was to prevent torsional vibration from the engine to be transmitted to the transaxle). While capable of lock up in all forward ranges, KM's normally will only lock up in third and fourth. Also, as stated before, the clutch is never on during a shift.
 
Trans Dude: thanks for the PM

wow i am at leat pleased with the way the auto thing is heading, i know that what im about to say prbly isnt posible, but its too cool not to say:

I think the ideal thing for me would be some magical device, that had two modes: If you put the seledtor in "D" it would opperate just like the stock trany... But put it in "N" and it would function as follows: you would have to wire the device to a sweet paddle shift stearign wheel or one with buttons, like momo, and so another box that would show a digital readout of the current gear. then the trany would shift through the five workable ratios in the auto, turning the OD on and off as needed, and allowing for up and down shifts.

So that is what i think would be awsome. i imagine that there would have to be no TC lock up for it to work. also just as food for though... would a system that cuts the ignition durign the shift be at all valuable? they do it on F1 and Cart... i dont imagien it woudl benefit a dsm though.. THanks for all the info
 
Many modern vechicle computer systems actually do drop ignition timing at the moment of the shift, it is known as "torque management" its purpose is two fold. 1) the shift quality becomes much smoother which is a trait that is desired by most car buyers and 2) the trans is subjected to less power during the shift -this is when the clutches are most prone to damage and wear. It is also more gentle on the other internal trans components.
 
Indeed.
 
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