The Top DSM Community on the Web

For 1990-1999 Mitsubishi Eclipse, Eagle Talon, Plymouth Laser, and Galant VR-4 Owners. Log in to remove most ads.

Please Support STM Tuned
Please Support ExtremePSI

ECMlink E316G on E85 in need of tune help.

This site may earn a commission from merchant
affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

You need to get your airflow calibrated before you "look for power". Once you can actually hit the AFR that you are targeting repeatedly at every RPM/load point, then you can start trying new AFRs and timing in the search of better performance.

Obviously, you can just skip the calibration thing and start throwing numbers at it, but you'll regret it in the long run..

Wait, wait...I didn't go blindly throwing numbers in. I was reffering to why I starting changing the tune from what I already had. As you see the wb n afre matched in those logs and everything was correct, very little knock, hitting 11s. Things were fine. So at that point I started looking for power. Once I tried going to 10s n upped the timing, things starting to get off. I'm going to calibrate the maf to get the wb/afr in line.


I'm not sure what you are referring to. To manipulate the display, the only two values you need to set are the min and max values for each logged parameter.

I was trying to set up the lines. How you broke the screen up into fourths, don't see the options you posted.

Lean it out to at least 11.6-11:8:1 your not doing your self any favors going that rich....

Go how rich? It's set at 11.5 and doesn't go higher, it's going lean and not reaching 11.5. My fault I know, will calibarate today.

This is E85 right?

Just scanned over this since my last post...

But, what calan said as far of lean arf's on e85 and rich knock...

Is what I've always seen as far as E85 it Does NOT like to go that rich. If you had a more agriessive setup or where running a more aggressive timing curve in that last log (the only resent one I've looked at)

Okay, look at the four logs before this last one. Much more aggriessive than the last one. Please note I posted a log from two of my tunes for comparison. One light on timing, one heavy with changes in afrs and boost.

You would be knocking I bet at that AFR and I've only seen in my experiance a hand full of cars that liked anythign even close to in the 11.4:1 range rather then 11.8:1 on a gas scale wideband.

Confused here, my last log was set to 11.0 on light timing and reaching 10.8-11.0. No knock.
The four logs before that was set at 11.5 on high timing and staying in the 10s never reaching 11.5. Getting knock. Are you saying 11 or 11.5 is rich? First you're saying to lean it out to 11.8-11.6 but then saying it's rich.

It's prefectly safe to go leaner then richer on a setup like yours (again as Calan has said) (not at all saying it's the way to go or Really safe) But I've seen WAY lean Afrs on Ethanol an it doesn't mind. Though When you start to getting up in the power that your "margin of error" starts to really fade fast.

Above all, make sure Edit:as calan said things are completly calibrated Before doing anything that part is what the masses here think is "tuning" when in reality it's the fairly easy part.

Once that is done you can start testing things out to apply what you know/have learned about tuning in reality.

Go leaner towards what? 10s? 12s? You have honestly confused the hell out of me this time. :confused:
 
Last edited:
Wait, wait...I didn't go blindly throwing numbers in. I was reffering to why I starting changing the tune from what I already had. As you see the wb n afre matched in those logs and everything was correct, very little knock, hitting 11s. Things were fine. So at that point I started looking for power.

My bad...I didn't look at the latest log. Good job on getting that close of a match on your WB and AFRatioEst. :thumb:

I was trying to set up the lines. How you broke the screen up into fourths, don't see the options you posted.

It's all done with just the min and max values. The other variables you see (ValueUpper, ValueLower, etc) are just used to calculate the appropriate min and max values to plug into Link.


You have honestly confused the hell out of me this time. :confused:

All he is saying is, that the 11.5 targets that we gave you are on the rich side for E85...which they are. A few cars actually like E85 that rich (gofer's I believe, off the top of my head), but most will end up running better at 12.0:1 or even a little leaner. BUT... 11.5:1 is "safe" while getting your airflow dialed in, without being ridiculously rich like 11.0:1 would be for E85. You don't want to be targeting 12.5:1 in the DA tables before calibrating your airflow, and then accidently hit 14.1:1 during a WOT pull. That is why you always start off rich and safe, until you know you can hit your target reliably.

The best thing to do when looking for power, is to pick a reasonable AFR (such as 12.0:1), and then incrementally adjust timing a degree or two at a time and watch the torque curve. Once you get best power for that combination of AFR and timing at the current boost, you can try a different AFR and go through the process again to find a better AFR/timing combination, or up the boost a couple psi and go through the process at the higher load points.

Knock trumps everything; if you see true knock at the leaner AFRs, get out of the gas immediately and drop timing down a couple of degrees at the point where the knock appeared, or one cell earlier. Remember that E85 will knock due to being overly-rich or from too much timing advance, but it will tolerate lean conditions very well...to the point that your EGTs may become too high or you may start experiencing misfires due to not having enough fuel in the mix.

If there is no knock but torque drops off at any given operating point, then you have gone past MBT at that point and should lower the timing a couple of degrees there also.
 
My bad...I didn't look at the latest log. Good job on getting that close of a match on your WB and AFRatioEst. :thumb:.

Thanks man but this what I don't get: I only changed timing, afr, and boost. Didn't mess with the mafcomp but now it's off when it wasn't before? Didn't even know of wbfactor at the time and the wb/afre was damn near perfectly matched.


It's all done with just the min and max values. The other variables you see (ValueUpper, ValueLower, etc) are just used to calculate the appropriate min and max values to plug into Link.

Oh ok, I'll try it again. Also I have a/c so what else can I use to make a line?

All he is saying is, that the 11.5 targets that we gave you are on the rich side for E85...which they are. A few cars actually like E85 that rich (gofer's I believe, off the top of my head), but most will end up running better at 12.0:1 or even a little leaner. BUT... 11.5:1 is "safe" while getting your airflow dialed in, without being ridiculously rich like 11.0:1 would be for E85. You don't want to be targeting 12.5:1 in the DA tables before calibrating your airflow, and then accidently hit 14.1:1 during a WOT pull. That is why you always start off rich and safe, until you know you can hit your target reliably.

The best thing to do when looking for power, is to pick a reasonable AFR (such as 12.0:1), and then incrementally adjust timing a degree or two at a time and watch the torque curve. Once you get best power for that combination of AFR and timing at the current boost, you can try a different AFR and go through the process again to find a better AFR/timing combination, or up the boost a couple psi and go through the process at the higher load points.

Knock trumps everything; if you see true knock at the leaner AFRs, get out of the gas immediately and drop timing down a couple of degrees at the point where the knock appeared, or one cell earlier. Remember that E85 will knock due to being overly-rich or from too much timing advance, but it will tolerate lean conditions very well...to the point that your EGTs may become too high or you may start experiencing misfires due to not having enough fuel in the mix.

If there is no knock but torque drops off at any given operating point, then you have gone past MBT at that point and should lower the timing a couple of degrees there also.

Oh ok, I understand that :hellyeah:
Question about the mafcomp, if wbf says I'm -5% then I need to remove 5% from that maf slider right? Now is that just dropping 5% points from the current Adj%?
Like wbf shows -5%,
wb shows 10.9,
afe shows 11.5,
maf raw at 2278,
adj% for that slider is 3.1%.
Do I remove 5 points to get -2.3? Or is there a math solution involved like I'm taking 5% from a number and what number would it be?
OR do I have it backwards and it showing -5% mean I add 5 points or %?

Oh crap tuning is fun, just realized why I have that dip in my runs. I noticed the only constant value from all the runs is it's happening right after the maf raw passes 2100hz. What happens at 2100hz? My mafcomp curve drops and flatlines. The curve isnt sharp but seems it's enough to make the studder and readjust. Will be changing that also. Hoping for a dry night again so I can try some things.
 
Also I have a/c so what else can I use to make a line?

Anything you want, that doesn't change values and that you don't normally log (Baro, EGRSolenoid, KeyOn, KeyStart, etc. etc). Check this page for ideas.

Question about the mafcomp, if wbf says I'm -5% then I need to remove 5% from that maf slider right? Now is that just dropping 5% points from the current Adj%?
Like wbf shows -5%,
wb shows 10.9,
afe shows 11.5,


Yep.

WBFactor is basically:

-(1 - (WB / AFRatioEst ))

or:

-(1 - (10.9 / 11.5)) = -0.052 = -5%

So you would lower that MAFComp slider 5%

****

The amount of required fuel is calculated from how much air the ECU thinks is entering the engine. When you adjust the MAFComp sliders, you are making corrections to the assumptions about airflow that the ECU is making.

So, an easy way to remember the above corrections:

WB is lower than AFRatioEst, so you are rich (in this case by 5%). To fix that, you need to remove 5% fuel, or in other words...lower the reported airflow to the ECU at that point by 5%.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Ugh...what the hell? The WBF is showing -48% at idle. If I go up on the sliders the car will idle unless I go too high than its rough. At the highest point on comfortable running WBF was still at -25%. If I go down from the starting point, the car barely runs and the rpms drop under 800.
I feel I missing something, what else could affect the WBF hardware wise? It seems there is something else causing the issue.
My front o2 sensor went out (replacing Monday), could this be my issue? Also noticed since it went out that my fuel trims are either in-line or way positive at any given time. Tried locking the car in open loop but trims were still wild.
 
Ugh...what the hell? The WBF is showing -48% at idle. If I go up on the sliders the car will idle unless I go too high than its rough. At the highest point on comfortable running WBF was still at -25%. If I go down from the starting point, the car barely runs and the rpms drop under 800.
I feel I missing something, what else could affect the WBF hardware wise? It seems there is something else causing the issue.
My front o2 sensor went out (replacing Monday), could this be my issue? Also noticed since it went out that my fuel trims are either in-line or way positive at any given time. Tried locking the car in open loop but trims were still wild.

Yes...you have to have a functioning front O2 sensor for closed loop operation.

The only fuel trim that you need to worry about (in closed loop) is CombinedFT... which is a combination of the selected long-term learned fuel trim and the short-term FT that the ECU is constantly updating to hit an AFR of 14.7:1.

In closed loop, get CombinedFT as close to zero as possible (remember to reset the fuel trims every now and then). In open loop, get WBFactor as close to zero as possible.

You need to replace that front O2 sensor before you can do anything in closed loop though... or configure ECMLink to use a simulated NB signal from your WB.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Right, I'm sure that's causing the fuel trim issues but I'm wondering what coulod cause the wb/afre to not line up no matter how much air I add or remove from mafcomp? I can get it close (within -5%) but never + anything or flat 0.

Here's a thought after doing some reading on Link, could my global or deadtimes be off? Effecting the wb from reaching it's target? Also read that an exhaust leak before the sensor could cause this.

Ok tried adjusting global and deadtime, zero change.
I hooked up the Innovate software for the first time, what total crap this is! Most basic program I've ever used and yet it ####ed up my readings completely. Now nothing matches, not afre, wb, or guage! I could only get two of the three to line up but never all three.
I'm pulling my hair out here so I have to ask: I've been told not to worry about the afre and wb lining up at idle, only wot, this true? I mean the log shows I'm rich as hell at idle but the car shows no signs of it and during pulls it leans itself out to only being off -3 to -5%. Should I correct the top and forget idle?

The amount of adjustment being asked for is insane, the car will not run if I get anywhere near it. I really feel there is a hardware issue effecting the wb, any thoughts?

Also sometimes the car will go super lean when no changes have been made. Here are logs of it super lean and super rich, no adjustment between the logs.

1) Very rich
2) Very lean
3) My "normal" state
 

Attachments

  • log.2012.07.14-01.elg
    13.3 KB · Views: 41
  • log.2012.07.14-02.elg
    21.7 KB · Views: 32
  • log.2012.07.14-03.elg
    16 KB · Views: 32
Last edited by a moderator:
I think it's time to take a serious look at your wiring and electrical system. Based on the anomalies in almost all of your logs, and the inconsistency that you are seeing now, something isn't adding up. I have a hunch that you have some electrical and/or sensor issues.

Of course it's next to impossible to tell for sure without being there to look at the car...but it seems reasonable at this point.
 
Pulled apart the wb and checked everything, guess who taped the calibration wire to the metal radio frame? So the wb was recalibrating in the exhaust everytime I started the car. Also the led from the hook up was dead so now I know why it never lit up. Pulled the downpipe, recalibrated, added new o2 sensor. Guage reads much better now, problem now is the guage n Link don't match.
Don't know what sensors I shoud be checking that wuold affect things, suggestions?
 
. Guage reads much better now, problem now is the guage n Link don't match.
Don't know what sensors I shoud be checking that wuold affect things, suggestions?

A post of mine

I've posted this a few times in different forums(if you look around)...

I should do a write up though if I ever have some free time. As I've gone into a bit more detail a few times in other posts...

You should get the genral Idea from that and if you look for Gofers Video here though as I say in the post above no need to have the car running to do it... .
 
Thanks for the awesome links My1G! I'll give this a shot if it doesn't rain all night. Been raining here since 10am.

Huh? The LC1 can be switched to an E85 stoich scale? Posted by Calan

I know I said no at first but I stand corrected, while going through the software I found out you can switch the LC-1 to e85 scale. I tried it and the gauge did convert, the times the car would run rich (20.3 gas afr) it would drop to 8.5 e85 afr. Once I can get everything lined up and working correctly I'm going to switch the logged values over to e85 scale.
 
I tried it and the gauge did convert, the times the car would run rich (20.3 gas afr) it would drop to 8.5 e85 afr.

That doesn't make sense. 20.3:1 on a gas AFR scale is incredibly lean (like bogus data or throttle lift-off lean)... not rich. If you do a straight AFR conversion from gas to E85 based on lambda (which the WB is actually reading), you can't go from extremely lean on gas to rich on E85. Either the car is running rich, or it's running lean...no matter what the fuel.

In your example, an AFR of 20.3 on a gas scale equates to a lambda value of 1.38 (or 38% lean)...and a lambda value of 1.38 equals 13.60 on an E85 AFR scale. Way lean is way lean...no matter how you slice it. :)

If you don't want to stick with the gas AFR scale, you're probably better off learning to adjust things based on lambda. With lambda, the value you see is the exact amount you are rich or lean regardless of the fuel, so it actually makes tuning much easier once you understand it.

You'll confuse the hell out of everyone if you start throwing out true E85 AFR numbers, since very, very few people are going to know what they mean. Besides that, the ECU is internally set up for a gas scale... so you'll still end up having to work with gas AFRs, which means conversions, etc etc.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I put that up wrong, sorry about the incorrect info. I believe I'm over-thinking the e85 scale and you'll right, better to just stay within the gas scale.
I'm hoping to try My1G's suggestion tonight if all goes well. So glad to have a working o2 sensor again, much easier to adjust based on fuel trims. Once I get those solid again I'll make sure wb and Link match then fine tune the wb factor.
Friday is coming fast, so much to do. I'm pretty excited to finally track the car.
 
Ok here's a log from last night, I followed the video to the letter and have realized I surely have an issue. No matter what I did the voltage of the EGR stays low with little movement causing the LinWB to jump all over the place. Even trying lowering the scale but it didn't help much. What controls what the EGR sees, like what needs to be replaced to fix this? No EGR in the car just what the wb was pinned to.
Made adjustments to timing and mafcomp but I seem to be stuck at this power level, people with less mods make more than I do and it's pissing me off. Spent too much money and sleepless nights to be trapped here.
 

Attachments

  • log.2012.07.20-02.elg
    25.9 KB · Views: 39
Ok here's a log from last night, I followed the video to the letter and have realized I surely have an issue.

My post before is more geared to the AEM but you can do the same if with some common sense if you get a full AFR sweep in a log... .

Just a quick glance at the W/b setting you set... That's not close to what it should be...

As well, it seems with out going over the whole thread an looking at all the logs. Like you have not reprogramed the Output from the wideband as the same as the gauge? Not sure but that would be my first guess or it's still not calibrated right or the sensor came undone an did a free air on it's own.

Can you open up the right version LMconfig <-- here To see what they are set at?

there is some info on all that on the ECMlink page <--- here though I don't recomend setting the w/b to anything but the same 7.35-22.3 range to start... . let confusion to add to the mix then setting the outputs different.
 
You're right the settings are very different but are set based on the voltage I'm seeing in RawLin .88-.98. In car gauge matches the afre very closely. Logging it is another matter. I will check the links and try again from scratch, I think the 3.29 keeps reloading. I'm guessing I have to be connected to the car to download 3.15? Everytime I try to download the link, it says "No serial detected".
 
Support Vendors who Support the DSM Community
Boosted Fabrication ECM Tuning ExtremePSI Fuel Injector Clinic Innovation Products Jacks Transmissions JNZ Tuning Kiggly Racing Morrison Fabrications MyMitsubishiStore.com RixRacing RockAuto RTM Racing STM Tuned

Latest posts

Build Thread Updates

Vendor Updates

Latest Classifieds

Back
Top