ECMlink E316G on E85 in need of tune help.

[snowborder714]

If you're trying to run 10:1, then yes, MAF Comp sliders need to be adjusted. You can see what you're really hitting (closer to 11:1) by viewing the logged wideband value.

Yes, you could have gained power, but you just went a little too far. To know if you truly gained power, you'd have to evaluate the logs (looking at airflow, injector duty, and some other values) at spool up with and without the timing advance.

Not quite sure why the IDC's went up.

You want to set the DA table to your target. This will display in AFRatioEst. You then adjust MAF Comp sliders to get the wideband line on top of the AFRatioEst line. You want to keep jumps between points on MAF Comp as minimal as possible and as smooth as possible.

 

[Calan]

Your airflow is incorrect. The easy way to check is only display AFRatioEst and wideband lines. They should be as identical as possible.

Or just look at WBFactor.

Trying to run 10:1 but read on the Link forum that it should be work its way down to the target. Thats why there are 10.9, 10.5, 10.1 cells. Wrong I assume?

Anything below 11.5:1 or so on E85 is usually considered to be on the rich side; anything in the 10's is definitely rich. I haven't looked at your logs yet, but it's possible the knock you picked up is rich knock.

On your timing comment... remember that timing, AFR, and boost go hand-in-hand. Best power (and lack of knock) is made at certain combinations of those. You can't just assume that raising timing will raise power.

BTW - This southern plains heat isn't helping you any, if you are trying to do pulls during daylight hours. Your IAT's are probably around 115* at least; that combined with the high coolant temps is going to have quite an impact on what you get out of that 16g.

 

[snowborder714]

Or just look at WBFactor.

I'm trying to teach people the background before giving them the hints/cheats

Anything below 11.5:1 or so on E85 is usually considered to be on the rich side; anything in the 10's is definitely rich. I haven't looked at your logs yet, but it's possible the knock you picked up is rich knock.

I doubt it was rich knock or it'd be higher/more frequent, but it may be. Either way, thanks for mentioning what I forgot to. I wouldn't run anything less than 11:1 or 11.5:1 on E85. I personally run a hair over 12:1 on my car. If you want, I can adjust the timing table to reflect this and then work on the MAF Comp in more detail after another pull. Any specific reason you were going for 10:1 with this fuel?

 

[Evo_This]

Hm, just when I thought I had a handle on this. Ok, can I try your adjusted setup?

 

[Calan]

I'm trying to teach people the background before giving them the hints/cheats

*cough* bullshit *cough* *cough*

...thanks for mentioning what I forgot to.

Senility kicking in a bit early?

I wouldn't run anything less than 11:1 or 11.5:1 on E85. I personally run a hair over 12:1 on my car.

Yep.

In my experience (and I'll emphasize on my car), with both the e16g and the HX40, E85 has a high tolerance for lean mixes, but doesn't like anything below about 11.4:1. It also isn't affected much by minor timing changes below a certain point, but doesn't have much tolerance for timing that is too high due to it's inability to handle pre-detonation very well.

I target a flat 12.0:1 AFR most of the time, but will drop it to around 11.5:1 if I plan on pushing the car a little during this summer heat. I've inadvertently ran it as high as 13:5:1 with no ill effects, but I wouldn't advise it.

 

[Evo_This]

Or just look at WBFactor.

Ok haven't ran across this before. Added it to the display but what is this telling me? The % difference between the wb & af est? How do I apply this?

Anything below 11.5:1 or so on E85 is usually considered to be on the rich side; anything in the 10's is definitely rich. I haven't looked at your logs yet, but it's possible the knock you picked up is rich knock.

Clearly I'm a victim of interwebs misinformation, I read that on e85 your scale was 9:1 rich to 12:1 lean. Which is why I went for 11:1 before but for this time around shot for 10:1.

[/QUOTE]on your timing comment... remember that timing, AFR, and boost go hand-in-hand. Best power (and lack of knock) is made at certain combinations of those. You can't just assume that raising timing will raise power.[/QUOTE]

Understandable. See I raised timing, lowered afr, and upped boost. Clearly the wrong combo but I had an idea of what you said.


[/QUOTE]BTW - This southern plains heat isn't helping you any, if you are trying to do pulls during daylight hours. Your IAT's are probably around 115* at least; that combined with the high coolant temps is going to have quite an impact on what you get out of that 16g[/QUOTE]

Yes it's been ####ing hot in Houston! No runs at all during the day, only late at night through the humitiy is still bad.

 

[snowborder714]

Hm, just when I thought I had a handle on this. Ok, can I try your adjusted setup?

I'll post something up in a bit for you. This will adjust the fuel tables and timing tables (just a hair on this). Then we'll adjust MAF Comp after a pull. We'll start off targeting 11:5, get airflow dialed in, and then from there you'll be able to adjust target AFR to whatever you want.

*cough* bullshit *cough* *cough*



Senility kicking in a bit early?

No bullshit - unless you think I forgot how to use link (which may be a tiny bit true seeing as I haven't done anything with my car in....I don't remember).

See the end of the comment above to hint at how great my memory is.

 

[snowborder714]

Ok haven't ran across this before. Added it to the display but what is this telling me? The % difference between the wb & af est? How do I apply this?

Correct. You'll apply this as it'll tell you how much to adjust the MAF Comp slider while referencing Hz level.

 

[Calan]

Ok haven't ran across this before. Added it to the display but what is this telling me? The % difference between the wb & af est? How do I apply this?

Yep. That's exactly what it is. If WB factor is showing +5%, it means you are 5% lean at that airflow point...or to think of it another way, it's telling you to add 5% fuel (or airflow calibration; aka MAFComp slider change). Just saves you a bit of easy math...but that's a good thing!

Clearly I'm a victim of interwebs misinformation, I read that on e85 your scale was 9:1 rich to 12:1 lean. Which is why I went for 11:1 before but for this time around shot for 10:1.

The true measurement coming from your WB is what's called a lambda value. Lambda is just a percentage value of excess air in the exhaust stream...so a lambda value of 1.0 means it's a perfect stoich mix (no wasted air or fuel, no matter what type of fuel). A lambda value of .87 means that there is 13% more fuel, or 13% too little air after combustion.

For some reason, most people prefer to think in terms of the actual ratio (AFR) for a given fuel, rather than in the percentage of excess air. So widebands convert the lambda value, and display it as an AFR referenced to gasoline's stoich value of 14.7:1, since that is the most common fuel.

Without making this more confusing than it already is, those numbers you quoted are correct...if you are reading AFR on an E85 scale. But most WB's are calibrated to show AFR referenced to a gasoline scale, which means that a perfect stoich mix (or lambda value of 1.0) = 14.7:1. If the WB was calibrated for E85, the internal lambda value of 1.0 would be converted to show 9.85:1; if it was calibrated for methanol, it would show 6.47:1, etc etc.

So, you need to either read lambda and adjust your mix based on that, or just think in terms of an equivalent gas scale number like most people are used to, since that is what your WB is going to show anyway.

Make sense?

EDIT:

I really need to learn to type faster, or just wait for Brian's ninja-like reflexes.

 

[snowborder714]

I really need to learn to type faster, or just wait for Bryan's ninja-like reflexes.

 

[Calan]

What was the for?

 

[snowborder714]

Upload these DA tables. With your current MAF Comp, I'm guessing it'll be off, but we can make adjustments after a good 3rd gear pull.

Craig, let me know if something looks really off with them.

 

[Calan]

Looks pretty good to me, except I would:

1. Just use 11.5 as the minimum in all AFR cells. It won't really matter since he won't hit those cells with 10's, but it makes the table cleaner.

2. Use the same table for both the min and max octane tables (both fuel and timing), unless you are using them as secondary tables. Again, just cleaner IMHO.

3. Copy the 2.6 row in the timing table down to the last two rows. Is there a reason you ramped the timing up a degree on the last two higher loads?


P.S. - Brian, if we get a good 3rd gear log from him and have time, we (or you ) could run it through LT, and adjust the AFRs and/or timing specific to those cells. Of course you could also do it by manually tracking the log, but it takes longer.

 

[snowborder714]

1. So just turn anything richer than 11.5 into 11.5 for the Max table (i.e. bottom left and top right)?

2. I agree, but just adjusted what he had.

3. Again, just adjusted what he had, which mainly was around 1.0-1.8 and 3k-5k.

 

[Calan]

Yep.

I'd probably start with something like this, along with some minor adjustment depending where his spool up and peak torque falls. That should be safe and yet not overly conservative, while getting airflow dialed in.

(Personally, I would only have two values in the AFR table while doing the initial airflow adjustments, with a hard switch-over right along the spool curve...but we won't go there for now.

 

[snowborder714]

I'd also probably drop the 3k/1.4 cell down from 29 to something that blended better. But I see what you're getting at, Craig.

 

[Evo_This]

Yep. That's exactly what it is. If WB factor is showing +5%, it means you are 5% lean at that airflow point...or to think of it another way, it's telling you to add 5% fuel (or airflow calibration; aka MAFComp slider change). Just saves you a bit of easy math...but that's a good thing!



The true measurement coming from your WB is what's called a lambda value. Lambda is just a percentage value of excess air in the exhaust stream...so a lambda value of 1.0 means it's a perfect stoich mix (no wasted air or fuel, no matter what type of fuel). A lambda value of .87 means that there is 13% more fuel, or 13% too little air after combustion.

For some reason, most people prefer to think in terms of the actual ratio (AFR) for a given fuel, rather than in the percentage of excess air. So widebands convert the lambda value, and display it as an AFR referenced to gasoline's stoich value of 14.7:1, since that is the most common fuel.

Without making this more confusing than it already is, those numbers you quoted are correct...if you are reading AFR on an E85 scale. But most WB's are calibrated to show AFR referenced to a gasoline scale, which means that a perfect stoich mix (or lambda value of 1.0) = 14.7:1. If the WB was calibrated for E85, the internal lambda value of 1.0 would be converted to show 9.85:1; if it was calibrated for methanol, it would show 6.47:1, etc etc.

So, you need to either read lambda and adjust your mix based on that, or just think in terms of an equivalent gas scale number like most people are used to, since that is what your WB is going to show anyway.

Make sense?

EDIT:

I really need to learn to type faster, or just wait for Brian's ninja-like reflexes.

Yes that's how I see the guage when looking at it, in a e85 scale. So my question now is, if you stay in the 12:1 range with e85 won't you be pretty lean all the time?

So should I try both setups or one of them?

 

[Calan]

Yes that's how I see the guage when looking at it, in a e85 scale.

Huh? The LC1 can be switched to an E85 stoich scale?

 

[Evo_This]

No I'm sorry, I mean that in my mind that's the scale I'm paying attention to when looking at the number.

 

[Calan]

No I'm sorry, I mean that in my mind that's the scale I'm paying attention to when looking at the number.

Ok.

In that case, forget about what the actual AFR values of E85 equate to. Just continue to think in terms of gasoline.

With that said, an AFR reading of 12.0:1 on E85 is a pretty good ratio to target, under most conditions. An AFR of 11.5:1 is safer, and a better value to start with until you get some experience and learn what your car likes best.

Conversely, on pump gas an AFR of 12.0:1 may be a little lean, and a "safer" AFR would be 10.8:1 or so.

 

[Evo_This]

Was bored so I took the car out
Nice cool temps and made these pulls, the first two are second gear. Last two are in third. I noticed a power increase which I'm happy about but not liking the dips in the curves. It's like a quick cut-out or drop in power than comes right back. Wasn't doing this before
What do I do now?

 

[Calan]

...not liking the dips in the curves. It's like a quick cut-out or drop in power than comes right back.

That looks like your WB is suddenly glitching rich for some odd reason, or you have a very selective boost leak that doesn't show up like normal. Nothing changes with the fuel flow, IDCs, or throttle, and airflow and RPMs are nice and constant. There are no dips or peaks in the torque and HP curves, and it seems to happen at random RPM and load points. Are you actually feeling it, or is it just a log/display issue?

What is even more odd is that in the -06 log, there is a tiny corresponding spike in both LoadFactor and AFRatioEst. An explanation for that is eluding me for the moment.

What do I do now?

You are still running rich, so you need to work on calibrating those MAFComp sliders until your WB matches AFRatioEst (or WBFactor is as close to 0 as you can get it). Also, change that 3k/1.4 cell in the timing tables to 17 or so. Not sure how I missed that when I tweaked that table.

BTW - You may want to check out this article, which will help you set up your display in ECMLink to make things easier to read and analyze.

 

[Evo_This]

I don't feel it with this setup but after noticing it I reloaded my safe tune just to see but this time I felt and heard the dip.
On this tune AFR was on track hitting 11, only .4 knock, good boost, power, n response at 16psi (not in this log but in older ones). Me & the car loved it but I'm hunting down more power so the change was made. Looking at it, it was a rather large advance in timing. Should I continue tweaking the new tune or maybe start over from this one?

Ok I'm trying to use the tips you gave about the graph but where is the "Offset"? I've opened every value I have logged but that isn't in the options. Only ones I see value min/max but not the other four sets you used?

 

[Calan]

...Me & the car loved it but I'm hunting down more power so the change was made.

You need to get your airflow calibrated before you "look for power". Once you can actually hit the AFR that you are targeting repeatedly at every RPM/load point, then you can start trying new AFRs and timing in the search of better performance.

Obviously, you can just skip the calibration thing and start throwing numbers at it, but you'll regret it in the long run.

Ok I'm trying to use the tips you gave about the graph but where is the "Offset"? I've opened every value I have logged but that isn't in the options. Only ones I see value min/max but not the other four sets you used?

I'm not sure what you are referring to. To manipulate the display, the only two values you need to set are the min and max values for each logged parameter.

 

[MY1GDSM]

Lean it out to at least 11.6-11:8:1 your not doing your self any favors going that rich...

This is E85 right?

Just scanned over this since my last post...

But, what calan said as far of lean arf's on e85 and rich knock...

Is what I've always seen as far as E85 it Does NOT like to go that rich. If you had a more agriessive setup or where running a more aggressive timing curve in that last log (the only resent one I've looked at)
You would be knocking I bet at that AFR and I've only seen in my experiance a hand full of cars that liked anythign even close to in the 11.4:1 range rather then 11.8:1 on a gas scale wideband.

It's prefectly safe to go leaner then richer on a setup like yours (again as Calan has said) (not at all saying it's the way to go or Really safe) But I've seen WAY lean Afrs on Ethanol an it doesn't mind. Though When you start to getting up in the power that your "margin of error" starts to really fade fast.

Above all, make sure Edit:as calan said things are completly calibrated Before doing anything that part is what the masses here think is "tuning" when in reality it's the fairly easy part.

Once that is done you can start testing things out to apply what you know/have learned about tuning in reality.