DSM suspension bad?

[ncampos92562]

Whenever I'm browsing around I find that most people see the old dc2 type r as having amazing handling. Why would someone ever hear about DSMs in the handling game with them being awd?

I wanna know why those type Rs are so amazing and what can be done to a dsm to improve handle to that of a type r? I always seem to be ahead of most rwd and fwd cars when it comes to comparing cars on a "closed course."

Im really interested in this because I feel if I went against someone with racing experience and a properly set up car I would get left behind.


/question brigade.

 

[PieEyedPiper]

Whenever I'm browsing around I find that most people see the old dc2 type r as having amazing handling. Why would someone ever hear about DSMs in the handling game with them being awd?

I wanna know why those type Rs are so amazing and what can be done to a dsm to improve handle to that of a type r? I always seem to be ahead of most rwd and fwd cars when it comes to comparing cars on a "closed course."

Im really interested in this because I feel if I went against someone with racing experience and a properly set up car I would get left behind.


/question brigade.

Integra is light, you are not.
Type R IS the best handling production FWD car to date.
It's also overrated and is not far beyond the abilities of a regular integra.
The DSM is heavy, and even heavier in the nose. This amplifies our severe understeering.

Lets look at what you've done and why you are looking for more. You have cheap lowering springs on the car and even cheaper shocks. The car is lowered far too much for the available spring rate - sure it looks cool and MAY even be relatively comfy for heading to the store but don't be fooled this is not a fast setup. The shocks are also likely operating outside they're optimal range.

If you really want to go fast you will need to invest in something like the Koni/GC setup or even a higher-end coilover setup. You're likely interested in front springs rates no lower than 450lbs, the rear is subjective. Some guesstimate what they want, others calculate it off the motion ratio.
You might also look into sway bars. Try the rear bar first o see how the car reacts, then install the front bar if you're up to the headache.

Unfortunately, I do not believe that an off the shelf setup will give you the results you're looking for. i.e. more lowering springs+shocks combos or even things like the ksport/d2/megan coilovers. It's likely that if you change your setup you will end up with the ksport/d2/megan setup and it surely is better than what you have, but it's not a real setup.

 

[ncampos92562]

I plan to attack the handling department in the future. Yes, I have springs and shock combo but it isn't like I'm bragging that I can out handle everything. My coilover choice will ultimately depend on what I want out of this thing. Which won't be happening for at least a year.

Somehow I always forget that type Rs are praised int he fwd class. But still, I watch track racing and many times fwd cars are posting better times then awd cars. Is this because of an improper setup?

I'm just looking for info here. I like learning for the future.

 

[ACM]

I think if you read through the guides and various handling threads you'll pick up why 2Gs tend not to be at the leading edge.

First, 2Gs have no front camber and massive rear camber, so the car pushes like a pig - add that to the powered front wheels and the front tyres get burnt off the car in no time at all.

Second, there are very few quality suspension setups available for a 2G. Most people are stuck with SA Konis, Ground Control, or hopefully either RRE or DG setups. That's a long way behind what's available off the shelf for the ITR.

Third, as PEP noted, 2Gs weigh a _lot_ and no matter what the class prep rules, it will always weigh a whole lot more than an ITR prepped to the same rules.

One of the biggest difficulties faced by 2Gs is there is hardly any quality off the shelf racing parts available. There is one adjustable anti-roll bar available, RRE's rear. There are two(?) non-adj a/r bar sets available - RM Racing and...ST maybe ? There aren't even any adjustable a/r bar end links available off the shelf for 2Gs ! There are no (longer) adjustable suspension arms available, and the sole front one that was previously available smacked the bodywork. Everything has to be custom made, so if you're not a decent fabricator you'd better bring a very thick cheque book to the table !

All of this stuff (and much, much more) is available OTS for ITRs, all the pony car generations, Hondas in general, and I've no doubt plenty of other cars too. For example, D/A Konis for a 'Stang are barely more expensive than S/A Konis for a 2G - D/As for a 2G are over double the price. Simply the math of volume, unfortunately. There's more custom Model T parts available than there are 2G...

If you want some idea about just how hard it is to bring a 2G up to competitive as an individual, read through Dennis Grant's site, FarNorthRacing.com - it's not for the faint-hearted, and it takes years to get there.

 

[Absit]

I blame everyone drag racing instead of twisty racing.
But do DSMs drag race because they handle poorly, or do they handle poorly because no one makes good suspension setups because DSMs only drag race?

I sure wish someone sold a bolt on affair for DG's setup..

 

[Sam@RRE]

I think people drag race DSM's because they are easy to make decent power and hook out of the hole. Makes for a fun drag car. People dont turn DSMs due to lack of market support and people who want to go into the market, lack of buyer support. There's only a handful of people to try to turn these things, and that handful isn't enough to make money on, if even possible to break even after design, testing, production, complaints. That's why the SPC arms got discontinued. Even then the DSM community, sorry I must say, are cheap, creative though, but cheap. People cringe when buying a $700 spring and shock combo and see a $2300 coil-over setup and go nah, I'll settle for the $700 setup. The next week they'll drop that $2300 on a turbo setup to be upgraded again the next year.
I've been there myself, and devoted everything to going fast in a Lady-man drag race. Then tallied up how much I've spent on engine work, turbos, fueling, engine management. It definitely towers what I've spent in suspension. So, JIC's, swaybar, bushing, and bride seat later, I must say the if the gain of fun and enjoyment of the car could be measured and compaired to the amount of enjoyment and fun from power upgrades, it would be equal. If you compaired money spent, for handling vs power, I've still dumped waaay more into power.
At this point I need more seat time, driver mod is the best mod.

 

[Absit]

I'm glad you brought some of that up Sam. I think a lot of people don't realize a better handling car is a LOT more fun than a faster car any day of the week.

Personally, I plan to spend quite a bit more on handling (suspension, tires, brakes, etc) than on power. Power's easy on these cars, let's get into something different!

 

[UofACATS]

I blame everyone drag racing instead of twisty racing.
But do DSMs drag race because they handle poorly, or do they handle poorly because no one makes good suspension setups because DSMs only drag race?

Here's an unfortunate reality.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/road-course-autocross/386826-kw-evo-8-9-coilovers-1g.html

I sure wish someone sold a bolt on affair for DG's setup..

They did!! Here's an old thread about it.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/handling-tech/181556-2g-suspension-option-ati-dennis-grant.html

There was even a second chance at these just recently (bolt-on affair), and there was <10 people to buy them.

You can still build your own though

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/handling-tech/307362-build-your-own-koni-coilovers.html

 

[Absit]

They did!! Here's an old thread about it.

Yup, 6 years ago.

There was even a second chance at these just recently (bolt-on affair), and there was <10 people to buy them.

How recently?

You can still build your own though

I know. But that means having stuff fabbed, finding a machine shop to notch the shocks, and having shocks dyno'd and hoping they're close enough to be tuned with the adjuster.

 

[UofACATS]

How recently?

It was about a year ago actually, maybe recent was the wrong word.

having stuff fabbed, finding a machine shop to notch the shocks, and having shocks dyno'd

I think finding the shock dyno might be the worst part.

 

[knochgoon24]

I'm here to bring good news for those of you looking at the DG setup.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/handling-tech/385416-my-koni-gc-rre-dg-style-install.html

 

[DG-FNR]

I find that most people see the old dc2 type r as having amazing handling. Why would someone ever hear about DSMs in the handling game with them being awd?

Heh.

If you poke around farnorthracing.com, you can see what my license plate was.

That's not an accident. I got that plate to #### with Bob Endicott back in my G Stock days.

DG

 

[HadesOmega]

Yeah its true the TURBO eclipse is a pig and the engine placement is just horrible, the block was mounted way front of the shock towers. This makes the eclipse understeer like crazy. The ITR also has one major advantage in that it has a factory installed LSD so it can get more power to the ground.

Now the the 2G non turbo is another story having owned both a RS and a GST the 2GNT handles much better than the GST even the 2G GSX. Its lighter and has more neutral steering because the 420A is mounted further back than the 4G63, makes a big difference. You can toss it around better too like in my avatar pic. I like the tranny better in the 2GNT also, I was never a fan of the turbo transmissions, they just don't feel as good. I'm guessing the reason mitsu mounted the 4G63 so far forward is because it has to accommodate the AWD drivetrain components. I've never driven an avenger before but I think they might handle even better than the eclipse because its probably lighter due to not having the hatch just a trunk.

Another reason you don't hear much about DSMs handling well is because (I know I'm being stereotypical maybe...) DSMers are obsessed about power. I go to some other car forums and from what I've seen is that DSMers are more focused on quarter mile times than autocross or track racing, but not all I guess.