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DSM chip or SAFCII

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Midnightride

15+ Year Contributor
183
0
Oct 4, 2006
Columbus, Ohio
Ok pretty much im in a depate. Either spend the money and get a SAFCII or I was looking into getting a DSMCHIP stage 3 probably.

Here is what im working with.

14B ported,exhaust manifold ported,o2 housing ported,3"turbo back exhaust w/high flow cat, MBC,FMIC w/hard piping,crushed 1G BOV, removed emissions stuff in engine compartment, K&N filter.

I have 550's and a 190 denso pump waiting to go in as soon as I get either of the above. Looking to run 20psi on pump gas.

I guess with having the SAFC I would have more room to tune VS. just having a chip.

Give me your thoughts please.
 
Zach,

Mark is absolutely right. The initial stage III is around 150.00 but upgrades are only 20.00 after that. I couldn't have afforded to go through 30 different combos if they were more although Jeff often jokes with me that I could have bought Link by now. The only downside is that if you don't have an EPROM ECU it'll raise the price to 350.00 which is more than reasonable. If you go that route, drop me a line and I'll discuss your setting with you so that you can pass them along to Jeff.

While we're here, congrats on the new addition. I don't have kids myself but I love to spoil them and give them back to their parents.
 
Good thread. I just have to ask a few questions though:
1. How does the chip effect driveability? They seem to be certaintly a great idea for WOT, but what about the driving that occurs 95% of the time?
2. Since every car is different and even cars with the same setup use different SAFC settings, how can the tune on a chip be perfectly set to a certain A/F ratio for every car with the same combo?
3. If the timing maps and A/F ratio is preset, why wouldn't everyone run 1000cc injectors no matter what size turbo, that way you never have to change anything when upgrading? Why run the chip on smaller injectors?

Thanks in advance. Just trying to learn.
 
You should run 1600cc injectors if you have a burned ecu or dsmlink. If you can compensate than do it. Im not sure why people always go with smaller injectors when they have the tool to control them. The drivability is like stock. Since the regular ecu fuel maps are still present. Only when you go WOT do they kick in.
 
I'm obviously not the expert on this, but I'll try to answer your questions. Wisemen, feel free to correct me.

1. How does the chip effect driveability? They seem to be certaintly a great idea for WOT, but what about the driving that occurs 95% of the time?
I would assume that driveability would remain pretty good since the ECU retains control the same as it normally would under those circumstances. Only the injector dead time and global adjustments are made in the ECU so that the ECU acts like the larger injectors came stock.

2. Since every car is different and even cars with the same setup use different SAFC settings, how can the tune on a chip be perfectly set to a certain A/F ratio for every car with the same combo?
The AFR can be mathematically calculated by the ECU once it knows airflow, IAT and some other variables, plus the ECU gets feedback by way of the knock sensor. The tune doesn't depend on the car's "combo" in the sense you are thinking of (I assume you mean bolt-on parts). Think of the "combo" as being injector size/brand, MAS/MAF type, ignition mods, etc. -basically things that may affect the ECU's calculations. The SAFC settings are estimated outside of the ecu based on the injector size alone. Feedback by way of a datalogger is harder to utilize because a person (not a computer) now does all the calculating and tries to fit everything into just 3 SAFC load maps. An SAFC doesn't have anywhere near the accuracy/resolution the ECU does.

3. If the timing maps and A/F ratio is preset, why wouldn't everyone run 1000cc injectors no matter what size turbo, that way you never have to change anything when upgrading? Why run the chip on smaller injectors?

Thanks in advance. Just trying to learn.
Most electronic equipment has an acceptable tolerance value, which is expressed as a percent. Considering the acceptable tolerance of an injector, 1000cc means 45% more imprecision than 550cc. If an injector is off by 45%, you get 45% more or 45% less fuel than perfect. Also, a bigger injector usually takes longer to respond and is harder to control precisely when flowing lower volumes. If you use a bigger (read: sloppier) injector, lower rpm driveability may suffer. I'm sure there are other reasons, but this is what I know of for sure.
 
Nice job Zach. That looked pretty good to me.

I'll have to disagree slightly with Jason on injector sizing though. I don't have enough airflow to require 1600cc injectors so there's no need for me to ever run them. I would think that a great middle of the road application that will allow for big power would 950's or 1000's. 1600's are damn expensive anyway and irrespective of how well you can compensate for them there's no point in running 30% duty cycles when running 75-80% won't hurt anything.

When building a fuel system, make it oversize by one to to stages (in terms of injector size) for whatever you need and you'll be fine. On a setup like mine where 750's are a great fit, I would pick up 950's and have the capacity to run a 60-1 if I so chose. A chip can still benefit a stock injector setup or even one with 550's. It all depends on the individual goals of the tuner. For example even if there's no injector compensation on a stock setup, leaning the A/F from 9.5:1 to 11-11.5:1 will provide some nice gains. If the turbo is boost limited, you can add a nice chunk of timing and shift the torque peak even lower in the absence of knock. There's always something that can be done and reading knock is a great tunning tool in and of itself. Let me give you an illustration from my stock motored 2.0:

9.5:1 A/F with 16 degrees of timing at 22 psi: Best run was 14.0 at 100.6
11.7:1 A/F with 23 degrees of advance at 24 psi: Best run was 12.57 at 107.85 (the car would have actually run faster had my dumb ass not been shifting stock cams at 7500 RPM - doh!)

While the 2 psi of boost made a difference, the tune had the greatest effect. Keep in mind that this was on the same turbo (16G) same injectors (550's) and same bolt on parts (intake, exhaust, 190 pump, hard I/C pipes and a sidemount). Tuning makes all the difference in the world.
 
IMost electronic equipment has an acceptable tolerance value, which is expressed as a percent. Considering the acceptable tolerance of an injector, 1000cc means 45% more imprecision than 550cc. If an injector is off by 45%, you get 45% more or 45% less fuel than perfect. Also, a bigger injector usually takes longer to respond and is harder to control precisely when flowing lower volumes. If you use a bigger (read: sloppier) injector, lower rpm driveability may suffer. I'm sure there are other reasons, but this is what I know of for sure.

Good point, but there are 2 different controls when you get bigger injectors. One is fuel control (which is mentioned above), but the other is deadtime compensation.

Bigger injectors only take longer to open (deadtime), if you don't have deadtime compensation (which is in the Stage III on the chip). Without deadtime a 1000cc injector takes longer to open and lower rpm's/pulsewidths will be too lean. Once you have deadtime compensation, it adds a "waketime" (opposite of deadtime :sneaky: ) to make the bigger injectors work like stock.

Also from what I remember the deadtime compensation map is voltage based since low voltage slows injectors down.
 
This is a very interesting thread.
Well Andy had convinced me a little while back about getting a keydiver chip from Jeff.
I cant tell if it gave me any gains because after I rebuilt/ 6bolt swap I hadnt ran that engine before the chip but it pulls nicely for a 14b.

I dont see chips as the only solution for tuning and I think having some adjustability with the chip would be wise considering the possibility of a mistake or defect in the chip, so I do believe it should be used with safc/wideband, a datalogger, for further safety, but currently I only have a chip.

My chip has enhanced open loop feature which is good for cruising gasmilage, and it has CE light as shiftlight, stock boostgauge as knock counter, and the stutterbox feature which I wont really need since im fwd. Jeff made hybrid 30 % expanded 2g maps for my car, and a question I have about that is what is the difference of 30 percent expanded 2g maps versus stock 1g maps as far as hp wise and knock durability? We originally did those maps because the first 6bolt rebuild had 2g pistons and we knew that compression wouldnt work well with the aggressive stock 1g maps.
My 6bolt now only has stock 1g pistons in it so I should be benefitted a little extra thresh hold in knock due to dropping the compression back down to 7:8. Though i think my performance is lowered a little since im running stock 1g pistons now with30%expanded 2g maps and a timing cap on the top map I believe at 15 or 16 degrees.
Jeff made me a 11:1 open loop afr. Due to my 14b having seal problems im upgrading turbos soon so im going to get injector compensation for 880s which should be all I ever need. The chip can also compensate in mas/maft in which I have a friend who runs the evo8 mas and 880s on his chip ( which he custom burns himself with no problems. ) and now thats the set up im running with no issues and the cars a lot smoother and more consistant now.
Also my car has an air flow cap which Im not positive what its for yet?
 
Also my car has an air flow cap which Im not positive what its for yet?

"5. Airflow cap removal - The factory ECU has an airflow cap. Unlike fuelcut, the car will continue to run above this "cap", but the ECU refuses to acknowledge any more than X airflow. So, the Duty Cycle plateaus, and the car leans out! Not a good thing! I recommend complete removal."
 
When the ECU sees less airflow, it doesn't reference the highest load map. The high load maps actually limit timing on a 2G to 16 degrees advance.

The issue with high timing on pump gas is that it's lowers your ability to control knock. As such, you have to reduce boost to keep from knocking excessively and as a general rule boost makes more power than timing on pump gas.

The difference with a custom Keydiver Chip is that the air fuel ratio is locked in as well as the timing. So let's say for example that on an AFC you could run 18 psi on 22 degrees of advance with 93 in the tank. On a Keydiver chip with locked timing maps you could run 23-24 psi with 16 degrees of advance.
Andy

Some great info here and the above quotes is basically where I'm at in my tuning. I have a Keydiver that compensates for 650 injectors. My high Th on the SAFC2 goes to -2 by the time it hits 7k on WOT. I have noticed that I can't get higher than 15-16 degrees of timing. I tried to richen it by bringing it to Zero by 7k on the SAFC2 but it just stays at 15 degrees at the top of 3rd gear. Now I know I'm on the high load maps for sure. The airflow with my Evo 16G is at 32-33 lbs/min (17-18psi no creep) I thought about raising the fuel pressure and leaning out the mixture to lower the airflow to try and get 17-18 degrees of timing but after reading this and finding out that my timing might be locked, my question is:
Is it possible to raise the timing by limiting what the ECU sees in airflow even with the keydiver?

I might just opt for more boost and keep the timing at 15 degrees but needed to know if its possible to get more timing even with the Keydiver.
 
Some great info here and the above quotes is basically where I'm at in my tuning. I have a Keydiver that compensates for 650 injectors. My high Th on the SAFC2 goes to -2 by the time it hits 7k on WOT. I have noticed that I can't get higher than 15-16 degrees of timing. I tried to richen it by bringing it to Zero by 7k on the SAFC2 but it just stays at 15 degrees at the top of 3rd gear. Now I know I'm on the high load maps for sure. The airflow with my Evo 16G is at 32-33 lbs/min (17-18psi no creep) I thought about raising the fuel pressure and leaning out the mixture to lower the airflow to try and get 17-18 degrees of timing but after reading this and finding out that my timing might be locked, my question is:
Is it possible to raise the timing by limiting what the ECU sees in airflow even with the keydiver?

I might just opt for more boost and keep the timing at 15 degrees but needed to know if its possible to get more timing even with the Keydiver.

id say just raise the boost to 20-21lbs if you have the right fuel set up for it and leave the timing alone. On that turbo i wouldnt recommend more timing anyway since its just going to increase chances on knock since that turbo heats up fast in the high boost range.

DGajre777 said:
"5. Airflow cap removal - The factory ECU has an airflow cap. Unlike fuelcut, the car will continue to run above this "cap", but the ECU refuses to acknowledge any more than X airflow. So, the Duty Cycle plateaus, and the car leans out! Not a good thing! I recommend complete removal."
And my car does not have an airflow cap according to the keydiver chip I have; so therefore i wont run into this lean problem then correct?
On a stock car when does this normally occur.
 
I definately have the right fuel mods for it. (255 hp Walbro, fic 650's and FTS AFPR w/guage) I just might do that (raise it to 20 psi) but I am still left with the question. Can it be possible to raise timing above 16 degrees with the Keydiver being that the timing is locked in.?
 
You can have the chip reburned for more timing, but why would you want that. 16 max is enough on pump gas.

Before reading this thread, I did try to get more than 15-16 degees of timing. Now I am not so interested. The question was just to find out if its "TRULY" locked at 16 max no matter what you do. I didn't ask so that I can try to get more timing.
Judging by the above quote, I take it that its not posssible and it now totally clear. Thanks.
 
Before reading this thread, I did try to get more than 15-16 degees of timing. Now I am not so interested. The question was just to find out if its "TRULY" locked at 16 max no matter what you do. I didn't ask so that I can try to get more timing.
Judging by the above quote, I take it that its not posssible and it now totally clear. Thanks.
It is possible to get more timing advance, by using an AFC or MAFT, but if your chip matches your injectors you'll have to go a good bit bigger in order to throw timing ahead very much. To get another 4-8 degrees, you'd need to keep the chip set for 650's and swap out the injectors for at least 850's, you'd be at something like 20-24 degrees max.
 
I would like to thank the O.P for starting this thread as I was debating this say thing in my head on which to go. I would like to thank Andy, Dee, Jason, Zach, and anyone else that asked good question's, and awnsered question's, because I now have none to ask :D. I will be going with a stage 3 chip + eprom ecu from Jeff for $350 soon as I deside on a few more factor's like injectors, ect. Oh yeah Andy... I have a 60-1 for my FWD TSi:sneaky:
 
I definately have the right fuel mods for it. (255 hp Walbro, fic 650's and FTS AFPR w/guage) I just might do that (raise it to 20 psi) but I am still left with the question. Can it be possible to raise timing above 16 degrees with the Keydiver being that the timing is locked in.?

You can add or subtract timing with the keydiver chip.
With your current turbo i wouldnt allow more than 16-17 degs of timing at 20+ psi
because of the heat. Your current maps should be fine. Like i was saying just raise the boost to 20-21psi and with the right fuel set up you should be ok.
 
oh true. How is your car running with your 2g pistons? Any luck with the tune or are you still waiting for the chip before you start turning boost up? I remember how you were telling me it would get knock at like 13psi.
 
I went without the chip remember. Im going with the SAFC and meth to help out with the timing. I just got the safc and my alternator died. So I went to do that and I found my tranny is leaking at one of the axle seals. What a PITA. So ive been to busy for the safc. Once I get the SAFC installed along with my FMIC I can put down some real #'s. Im guessing I cant get more than 17psi on pump without the meth.
 
I don't know if you are referring to the company by te name of "DSM CHIPs", I would suggest that you get both. The owner of the company personally programs each chip to go along with the mods that you have.
When you receive the chip, you will have need to set the AFC parameters to 0. Reason being, th chip is programed to control whatever size injectors that you have. Once you done that, then you can start fine tuning you car with the AFC. I use to have this setup on my car that was stolen. I was running 25psi, and made 578hp to the wheels. I never had a problem with that setup.
 
The 14B turbo is worthless and tiny. You will definitely be upgrading from this turbo sometime in the near future (you will get tired of being slow, or the turbo will simply die of old age). Getting a custom chip for a 14B almost seems like overkill. Since future modifications seem very likely I would go ahead and spend the cash on a SAFC + Wideband so you will have something that is totally compatible with larger turbos. Even if you decide to get a chip later on, you can always use the SAFC in combination with the chip to fine tune things even further.
 
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