Do Spoilers do anything?

[Spoolin']

OK, I am not an some aerospace engineer, but I am going to try to shed some light on this issue.
First of all, 99% of all those wings you see on STREET cars are for show. Why is this? Because I know of only one company that does full scale wind testing on their products and that is Mugen, who only provides parts for Honda, and at a considerable price.
However, aerodynamic basics tell you that when it comes to applying downforce you need to be careful not unballance the car. Even FWD cars need downforce on the rear wheels to stabalize that part of the vehicle. Yet, if too much downforce is exerted on the rearend, the front end will become unloaded and you will lose traction and acceleration and will acquire oversteer. Still if you do not have enough downforce to keep the rear tires planted, it will create oversteer.
My simple advice is don't even bother with an after market spoiler. Unless Ralliart comes out with one specificly developed for our car, it is a waste of money and only adds dead weight and drag. Unless its a purely 1/4 mile machine then I would add a Pro Street style spoiler and log some track time to test it.

 

[focusedrage]

interesting, you make some sense, and yet i find it hard to belive that so many companies make spoilers that are "jsut for show" i mean i have seen a lot with a clearly inversed air foil shape, and they must provide soem down force. Also perhaps it is the mountign that seperates the men from the boys, i woul dimagine a serious spoiler woudl be integrated into the frame. Also, when people say they only work at such and such a speed, thats OK. I mena it droped form 150 to 70 mph, and i go above 70 frequetly, i want to get into road raceing, and they all, ALL have spoilers....

 

[AWDSOME]

I find it comical that this question was directed towards road racing a DSM inititially and everyone else quickly made it a drag racing and wings question. Focusedrage was asking about the use of a Spoiler for road racing and the answer is a huge "yes". In a road race setup a spoiler is invaluable in helping to keep the rear end planted during high speed cornering. For anyone that disagrees, take two equal DSM and place a true "track" spoiler on one and run the other stock and see who has the better times and who goes spinning into the dirt.

Unfortunately, I am not sure what companies make useable wings for DSMs

 

[Black95GSX]

Main point of the stock spoiler on DSMs (aside from looks on turbo 97-99's) is drag.

that's it...

 

[GST4U2NV]

some where i read that the 97-99 hoop spoiler(turbo wing) act. did something, can't remember where though

 

[Tevenor]

Originally posted by GST4U2NV
some where i read that the 97-99 hoop spoiler(turbo wing) act. did something, can't remember where though

Yeah it does something. It's a fancy term called 'Block your rear view'.

 

[focusedrage]

hhahaha, thats funny, well thats good, now that people support the purchase of a spoiler, thanks

 

[GST4U2NV]

Originally posted by Tevenor


Yeah it does something. It's a fancy term called 'Block your rear view'.

true, true

 

[focusedrage]

whoa.... i was laughing because of the post right above, but my post was befor that? how can that happen?

 

[mike9146]

UndergroundR32 wrote:


"when you have a fair amount of torque, the drag wont even be noticable. Less high speed accelaration and worse gas miliage? I hope you are joking. "99.9% of the "Big Wingers" I see haven't even come close to maxing out the mechanical grip" No one said they would max it out, or would expect it to. And you talk about it like it's in place of a wing "you're going to gain a lot more cornering power with better suspension then you are with a wing. DSM's aren't F1 cars.." Dont get agravated because they are so popular to see on rice."

Apparently, you don't understand much about aerodynamics. With a wing, whenever you have downforce, you have drag. Period. The most efficient wings made, those that are on Champ Cars and F1 cars, create
roughly a pound of drag for every three pounds of downforce they produce. This is on a racecar that spends *hundreds* if not *thousands* of hours in the wind tunnel. Do you think that "Wings West" is going to do better than Ferrari F1 with the efficiency of their wings? (Assuming they even thought about it in the first place, which I doubt) So no, I'm not joking. Do you seriously expect to gain something for noting? And yes, since the original question was regarding the "benefit" of a wing, I chose to include the fact that if a person thinks he needs a wing for more grip, yes, that is what wings are for) he should first max out his mechanical grip, since there is no drag penalty associated with that. You obviously don't even understand that. Roadracing cars of all types *always* try to maximize mechanical grip and add the least amount of "wing" for the very reason I described above.
Next time, know what the hell you're talking about before pontificating further.. I would suggest starting with Carroll Smith's "Tune To Win."

Mike C.

 

[UndergroundR32]

Yikes!!! I stand corrected

 

[mike9146]

I apologize if I was a bit harsh. Underground, I know you know your stuff when we're talking DSM modding, but I guess I took your response personally. Yes, I do have a problem with all of the B.S. people tend to propagate on these types of sites, and I assumed that you were going in the direction of "know-it-all." Obviously, you aren't. Sorry if I went too far.

Mike C.

 

[UndergroundR32]

No, I'll definately admit a mistake when I make one. To be perfectly honest I don't know all that much about DSM's and am learning a lot from this web board. I sometimes post where I think I might have some input worth while. Here wasn't one of those posts

 

[Hobbes =^.^=]

Originally posted by mike9146
UndergroundR32 wrote:
he should first max out his mechanical grip, since there is no drag penalty associated with that. You obviously don't even understand that. Roadracing cars of all types *always* try to maximize mechanical grip and add the least amount of "wing" for the very reason I described above.

Just wondering, would a NASCAR be a good example of them? Because I don't see any big wings on those cars, and there going pretty fast.

=^.^=

 

[focusedrage]

well lets all have a big hug....

very helpful people all a bout, thanks...

so what your saying is a wing would be useful? or that it is the last thing that should be done?

 

[Hobbes =^.^=]

A wing would be useful if it really works. I think what he meant was to get the most grip you can get without a wing, then if you really need it. Get the wing, but a functional wing

 

[niterydr]

i have a friend that use to road race (scca) a '91 gsx before they kicked him out of the local tracks (took down to many porche's, hehe)...
well he told me this about wings:
'you ever drive a turbo'd stock dsm over 125?
i've driven the '90-91, the '92-94 and the wingless ones and they all handle differently, the 90-91's are smoother transition wise of 'drag' (due to the wing design, incorperating the entire body), the 92-94's have alot of bite, and the wingless ones...i'd never drive one again, you couldn't pay me enough'.
which if you think about it it makes since, just look at the 1g's bodies, look at the rear diffuser, i mean if one were to race thier 1g it would be very beneficial to drop the car (which this guy also recommends), add a chin spoiler, and if you have a '92-94 adjust the rear (side) wing to where it will blend into the body better...also smoothing out the underside of the car will help greatly.
So wings do help, but try to maximize your mechanical grip first, then you'll find you lateral g's, and how hard you can come out of corners, then try to adjust aerodynamics..
and on the other hand..
i've seen cars pick up 2mph at a crappy track with removing the wing (i doubt it was from the weight reduction) these were both fwd cars..
thats my 2psi.

 

[Malenko]

Originally posted by Hobbes =^.^=


Just wondering, would a NASCAR be a good example of them? Because I don't see any big wings on those cars, and there going pretty fast.

=^.^=

I believe NASCars are RWD and they have a lip spolier (albiet small but its there) the type of spoiler they have makes drafting that much more important....
2Nascars one behind the other can go alot faster then just 1

back on topic:
I had a spoiler on my car, a 48" wide 5" tall (smallest I could find) arospeeed, I got it before it was the rice thing to have and I genuinely liked the look, but its been tainted by all the rice guys around here.

Im not just tossin the term out, these are genuine ricers... a neon with a 56 (58") spoiler and APC stickers all over and buttloads of false badges civics

Now it seems spoiler = target for cops and everyone and their brother wants to race you. Even if its 11:45 at night and you just got off work and are really tired, they will still rev you at the light no matter what they are driving.

I say dont get it unless it will make a world of difference in your racing, and it'd be great if it was removeable.

just my 3 cents

 

[focusedrage]

"it'd be great if it was removeable. "

well i have seen thes ones with brakets that use set screws i think, but those must be for show, and they could get stolen, i think it would be great if ther was some underground, universal thing that told other racers you were "off duty" i mean i know street racign is illegal but its not stiopin anyone.... well that was ramblin, i have always imagined havign a car that could have a full race spoiler pop out of the trunk,

 

[mike9146]

If I were street racer, the last thing I would want (assuming you were drag racing) is a huge wing slowing the car down with both weight and unnecessary drag. In the "Olden Days," DSM's were respected because of their speed potential *without* superfluous additions. It looks those days are numbered...

Mike C.

 

[toshi128]

about the spoiler talk...
NASCAR does have a little spoiler tho... they have a bigger version of the new M3 style spoilers... a little piece on the edge of trunk lid... so i wonder, if dsm's have that... would that help???
one more thing... all spoilers only help at high speed? such as 70 + mph?
If someone has a roof spoiler? does it do anything? at low speed? high speed?

 

[Tevenor]

What's the average speed of a NASCAR car? What's the average speed of your DSM?

 

[toshi128]

doh! stupid me! hehe

i got curious since i saw this project audi s4 on euro car mag. and they put the spoiler from m3 on it, since it fits without any modification.

from the "rice" side, i think it adds a nice touch to the car tho... don't flame me on this... i'm talkng from the "rice" side

 

[focusedrage]

i agree, a properly selected spoiler on a good car gives a race car look, but i laugh to tears when i see a civic with a hughe aluminum wing, i think if its for mostly show, then the car makes a big difference, like real sports cars can ussaly end up looking like a race car, but groccery getters just look silly

i mean if you put a wing on an nsx, then its not rice, well it still is, but i woudlent make fun of it... well i was whatching south park while im typing this so i dont think i said anythign of worth

 

[toshi128]

What do ppl think about this? no spoiler at all for gsx/gst's??? or any ideas of anything better???