2G Cylinder Head, 80mm throttlebody, 2250cc Injectors, what do I need to make this pig run?

[Brian Phelps]

So I've done extensive work on my Cylinder head, intake Manifold, exhaust manifold, throttlebody, injectors, turbo, and head internals.

Parts List:
80mm Throttlebody,
Custom Intake manifold (NO MAP Sensor),
2250cc injectors @5bar
Aluminium fuel rail
100lbs Holly Fuel Pressure Regulator
295lbs Valve Springs
Solid Lifters,
86mm cans,
Forged steel valves,
Forged steel spring caps and seats,
Ram horn even flow headers
57/59 T3/T4 Hybrid Ceramic Ball bearing Turbo Charger,
3" down pipe,
Trial Wastegate.

I've deleted the cruise control, egr valve, MAP sensor, IACV, and a bunch of vacuum line stuff, the intake has 3 vacuum line fittings on it and a brake vacuum assist fitting. Could anyone tell me if I need the MAP sensor, or if the 7 wire MAF sensor will be enough. Also I know I need a Vacuum line for the turbo, boost gauge, brake booster, fuel pressure regulator, but is there anything else that needs manifold vacuum pressure to assist the engine in daily operations? Yes I'm planning on driving this on the roads as a road legal car.

 

[NOSLO2PT0]

What are 86mm cans? Judging by your parts list, you completely overbuilt and mismatched a bunch of parts. You need to tell us what your goals are for the car, HP or ET. Is this going to be a daily driver, a weekend warrior, what? Hopefully you didn't buy some Chinese turbo off ebay.

You will need a vacuum source for your wastegate as well as the Blow off valve. I'm not a 2g guy, so idk what happens with the mdp sensor if you eliminate it. I know the ECU has to see that signal in some form if you are not running speed density via DSMLink.

We need more info on the car and your goals to give better recommendations.

 

[dustyboner]

1st thing, if you don't already have it, you'll need a way to tune, like DSMLink , AEM, etc...
Even if your not gonna run a speed density setup, you probably want an aftermarket MAP sensor for reading/logging boost.
Gonna need a wideband too if you don't have one.

Are you planning on running e85? if not you should go with 1000cc injectors. You don't need bigger than that with the size of turbo your using (unless using e85). With 1000s you won't have any idle issues either.

The PCV needs a vac. port on the intake mani too.

If you want the car to be road legal, technically you need all the emissions stuff installed and working. If you don't have emissions testing where you live, then it doesn't matter.

 

[randman2011]

If you want to take this car anywhere beyond the drag strip I suggest you ditch the 80mm throttle body for a 60mm 1g TB. You've more than doubled the TB area (23.75 sq. cm to 50.27 sq. cm) without an increase in displacement, so all that's going to do is halve the amount of throttle you have for driving and double its sensitivity. The upper (more than) half of the throttle range will do nothing. An 80mm throttle body is considered large on a 5.0L V8 and can flow enough air for 1600 naturally aspirated horsepower and very significantly more with forced induction.

The T3/T4 isn't a stellar performer and doesn't get any attention on this platform for many reasons. The ones I'm familiar with are sized between a 14b and a small 16g but with miles more lag and higher boost threshold as well as very pathetic efficiency. If you're already springing for a T3 setup you might as well go with something from this millennium like a G, GT, or GTX series Garrett or a Borg Warner turbo. Holsets are very popular as well. Your profile says you're planning to get this car to 1000hp, and a T3 setup will not get you there. Even a T4 manifold will be small for that task. And you're going to need more displacement and a much higher redline to get there.

Your fuel injectors are sized for 1200hp. AUS doesn't list 2250cc injectors but they do list a 2000cc low-Z EV1 set for the Eclipse. If the ones you have aren't High-Z EV14 injectors you'll have a hell of a time getting any kind of drivability out of them.

Boost gauge, BOV, fuel pressure regulator, brake booster are all required and get manifold pressure reference. Your wastegate goes to a port on your compressor housing or in the charge pipe and not the manifold. Without emissions equipment, that's all you need.

The Eclipse doesn't have a MAP sensor stock. It has an MDP sensor in the manifold that is used exclusively for emissions checks that can be deleted or disconnected without issue. Many people choose to run a MAP sensor in that port for speed density. The stock 2g MAF has a pretty high upper limit that you wouldn't exceed with a T3/T4 turbo so you can keep it if you want and skip a MAP sensor and speed density. But given your 1000hp goal (not to mention fuel injector and throttle body choice), you absolutely will need to ditch the MAF sensor and add a MAP and IAT sensor to run speed density.

With 1000hp, you're going to litter the ground with gears, synchros, and two differentials the first time you look at the throttle pedal. No amount of powertrain rebuild magic is going to make the W5M33 handle that torque. I'm not even sure if the auto transmission is reliably handling that kind of power yet. I get that this is intended to be a show car, but you can't even dyno 1000hp through a 5 speed.

What ECU are you intending to use to control this? ECMLink is not the greatest choice for your end goal and I wouldn't recommend the black box ECU either. Your parts wishlist includes a Haltech which should do the trick. Do you have any experience installing or tuning Haltech ECUs? I just installed a Megasquirt in my 98 GSX and it wasn't hard but there were a few problems that I wasn't expecting when going full standalone on this platform.

 

[1990TSIAWDTALON]

86mm cans = 86mm pistons.

 

[BeenARound]

Oh dont forget if your looking to get 1000hp with 86 mm pistons you might want to consider having the block at least half filled. While it will certainly do it. It wont last. Been there done that.

 

[Brian Phelps]

If you want to take this car anywhere beyond the drag strip I suggest you ditch the 80mm throttle body for a 60mm 1g TB. You've more than doubled the TB area (23.75 sq. cm to 50.27 sq. cm) without an increase in displacement, so all that's going to do is halve the amount of throttle you have for driving and double its sensitivity. The upper (more than) half of the throttle range will do nothing. An 80mm throttle body is considered large on a 5.0L V8 and can flow enough air for 1600 naturally aspirated horsepower and very significantly more with forced induction.

The T3/T4 isn't a stellar performer and doesn't get any attention on this platform for many reasons. The ones I'm familiar with are sized between a 14b and a small 16g but with miles more lag and higher boost threshold as well as very pathetic efficiency. If you're already springing for a T3 setup you might as well go with something from this millennium like a G, GT, or GTX series Garrett or a Borg Warner turbo. Holsets are very popular as well. Your profile says you're planning to get this car to 1000hp, and a T3 setup will not get you there. Even a T4 manifold will be small for that task. And you're going to need more displacement and a much higher redline to get there.

Your fuel injectors are sized for 1200hp. AUS doesn't list 2250cc injectors but they do list a 2000cc low-Z EV1 set for the Eclipse. If the ones you have aren't High-Z EV14 injectors you'll have a hell of a time getting any kind of drivability out of them.

Boost gauge, BOV, fuel pressure regulator, brake booster are all required and get manifold pressure reference. Your wastegate goes to a port on your compressor housing or in the charge pipe and not the manifold. Without emissions equipment, that's all you need.

The Eclipse doesn't have a MAP sensor stock. It has an MDP sensor in the manifold that is used exclusively for emissions checks that can be deleted or disconnected without issue. Many people choose to run a MAP sensor in that port for speed density. The stock 2g MAF has a pretty high upper limit that you wouldn't exceed with a T3/T4 turbo so you can keep it if you want and skip a MAP sensor and speed density. But given your 1000hp goal (not to mention fuel injector and throttle body choice), you absolutely will need to ditch the MAF sensor and add a MAP and IAT sensor to run speed density.

With 1000hp, you're going to litter the ground with gears, synchros, and two differentials the first time you look at the throttle pedal. No amount of powertrain rebuild magic is going to make the W5M33 handle that torque. I'm not even sure if the auto transmission is reliably handling that kind of power yet. I get that this is intended to be a show car, but you can't even dyno 1000hp through a 5 speed.

What ECU are you intending to use to control this? ECMLink is not the greatest choice for your end goal and I wouldn't recommend the black box ECU either. Your parts wishlist includes a Haltech which should do the trick. Do you have any experience installing or tuning Haltech ECUs? I just installed a Megasquirt in my 98 GSX and it wasn't hard but there were a few problems that I wasn't expecting when going full standalone on this platform.

Thank you so much this has been more than helpful. I'm struggling because this is my first 4 cylinder, and single turbo car. I'm used to 6 and 8 cylinder twin scrolls. I was told to stay small on the turbo so I don't face lag. The over sized cams are to make sure once the manifold gets hot the turbo is building pressure. The stock engine with this cam and turbo setup worked perfect but I ran out of injector. Yes it's the AUS 2000cc injectors but the flow rate at 4.5bar on all injectors is 2200 and I'm running 5bar for. So I accounted for the pressure change using injector calculator. The throttlebody and the intake manifold were only for show. I'll never find enough air in any turbo to fill it so I'm a little worried about that. I would love to put a Haltech ECU in this. It's not in the budget right now so everything is ECM Link tuned right now. It does support data logging for them I have to use the dyno next door to tune it. I think I'll have to change out my fuel pump it's only a 225 so I don't think it's big enough for 1000hp but if I can figure out this setup when spring comes I'll be able to put it in. Don't worry I plan on going with a professional grade trans setup and I have a bunch of Dodge Stealth RT"s I can RIP a Mitsubishi AWD System out of. I can engineer anything.

 

[1990TSIAWDTALON]

Look at the 525 "Hellcat" pump. It is a drop in unit and delivers about as much as you can get in a drop in pump here.

 

[KCDsmDude]

Look at the 525 "Hellcat" pump. It is a drop in unit and delivers about as much as you can get in a drop in pump here.

Didn't know this was an option. I have the 450 now and this looks like it would be a slight step up if I was just "barely" maxing out the fuel pump. Good info.

 

[1990TSIAWDTALON]

I run that pump (with a check valve) in my 92 TSI. It has never let me down.

 

[randman2011]

I was told to stay small on the turbo so I don't face lag. The over sized cams are to make sure once the manifold gets hot the turbo is building pressure. The stock engine with this cam and turbo setup worked perfect but I ran out of injector.

Ah okay, so you've run at least part of this configuration already. Could you list what has changed or what you intend to change since the last time this was running so we know what problems you're seeing?

Yes it's the AUS 2000cc injectors but the flow rate at 4.5bar on all injectors is 2200 and I'm running 5bar for. So I accounted for the pressure change using injector calculator.

Is there a reason you're planning for higher fuel pressure from the start? I admit I'm not the most knowledgeable on the very high HP builds, but it's usually a lot easier to control fuel with the stock 3 bar/43.5 psi fuel pressure, and the only times I've seen people turn up the pressure are when they're trying to get just a little more out of the injectors that they already have before upgrading. The low impedance EV1 injectors that you have are already going to be tough to accommodate, and other companies like Fuel Injector Clinic, Deatschwerks, and Injector Dynamics have 2150cc through 2600cc high impedance injectors that could support your power goal at the standard 3 bar pressure and have much better idle and low load control.

The throttlebody and the intake manifold were only for show. I'll never find enough air in any turbo to fill it so I'm a little worried about that.

I figured that was probably the case. If you aren't able to deal with the driveability issues that come from such a large throttle body, you could try fabricating a larger throttle body cable wheel to decrease the sensitivity at the expense of not opening the throttle all the way.

I would love to put a Haltech ECU in this. It's not in the budget right now so everything is ECM Link tuned right now. It does support data logging for them I have to use the dyno next door to tune it.

ECMLink will be fine for now, but it can't handle certain types of mods. It only works with the stock ignition system, for example, and you'll need something more powerful to get to 500hl/L.

I think I'll have to change out my fuel pump it's only a 225 so I don't think it's big enough for 1000hp but if I can figure out this setup when spring comes I'll be able to put it in.

I'm assuming you have a 255 lph pump, which would get you up to halfway there but would be fine for now. Full Blown makes a Double Pumper that can hold two in tank fuel pumps to give you enough flow for what you need, but that can absolutely be a down the road thing.

Don't worry I plan on going with a professional grade trans setup and I have a bunch of Dodge Stealth RT"s I can RIP a Mitsubishi AWD System out of. I can engineer anything.

I don't know anything at all about the 3000GT AWD system's power limits but I'd love to see someone do the swap. It has been talked about a lot in the past and I've seen 3000GTs with 4G63s but nothing the other direction. That would be a fun project to watch develop!

 

[Brian Phelps]

Ah okay, so you've run at least part of this configuration already. Could you list what has changed or what you intend to change since the last time this was running so we know what problems you're seeing?


Is there a reason you're planning for higher fuel pressure from the start? I admit I'm not the most knowledgeable on the very high HP builds, but it's usually a lot easier to control fuel with the stock 3 bar/43.5 psi fuel pressure, and the only times I've seen people turn up the pressure are when they're trying to get just a little more out of the injectors that they already have before upgrading. The low impedance EV1 injectors that you have are already going to be tough to accommodate, and other companies like Fuel Injector Clinic, Deatschwerks, and Injector Dynamics have 2150cc through 2600cc high impedance injectors that could support your power goal at the standard 3 bar pressure and have much better idle and low load control.

I figured that was probably the case. If you aren't able to deal with the driveability issues that come from such a large throttle body, you could try fabricating a larger throttle body cable wheel to decrease the sensitivity at the expense of not opening the throttle all the way.

ECMLink will be fine for now, but it can't handle certain types of mods. It only works with the stock ignition system, for example, and you'll need something more powerful to get to 500hl/L.

I'm assuming you have a 255 lph pump, which would get you up to halfway there but would be fine for now. Full Blown makes a Double Pumper that can hold two in tank fuel pumps to give you enough flow for what you need, but that can absolutely be a down the road thing.

I don't know anything at all about the 3000GT AWD system's power limits but I'd love to see someone do the swap. It has been talked about a lot in the past and I've seen 3000GTs with 4G63s but nothing the other direction. That would be a fun project to watch develop!

So the only change on the way I've run it in the past test would be the bigger fuel injectors, and throttlebody. The throttlebodies cable area is 2 5× bigger than the stock one. I'll get you measurements this weekend. I was hoping that, that would be enough offset. The injectors were tested and rated at multiple bar settings (3, 3.5,4, 4.5) idling I'd be sitting around the stock 3bar but under heavy acceleration and high RPM the Bar MAP would go all the way up to 5 bar. This way I can make sure that the engine doesn't lean out. I probably should add that I do have plans for a 250 shot down the road hence the injector size.

On the note of fuel pressure I will look into the dual fuel pump option thanks for that recommendation.

I was planning on going with the 1500hl kit with full wiring harness because I want to run individual wide bands for each cylinder. That way I can run individual cylinder calibration to get the most out of this engine. Again further down the road. It's good to know what I've got now is safe and can be used for the higher end once I get enough purchasing power to upgrade.

What Turbo do you think I should be running to get the most out of my RPM range?

 

[1990TSIAWDTALON]

Am I getting the impression that you running a huge TB can be simply compensated with larger injectors?
Not being nosey, just trying to figure out how your plan is to make the numbers you seek.

 

[DSMPT]

A good plan, select the right parts, install/build properly and a good tune.

 

[NOSLO2PT0]

Run a wet nitrous kit. The added fuel needed will be supplied by the fuel solenoid. Don’t affect injector size. Running separate widebands for each cylinder seems like super overkill for a project of this size. 1000hp isn’t rocket science and has been done many times.

For 1000whp you are going to need a turbo with at least a 70mm compressor wheel (95+ lb/min flow rate)

 

[Brian Phelps]

Run a wet nitrous kit. The added fuel needed will be supplied by the fuel solenoid. Don’t affect injector size. Running separate widebands for each cylinder seems like super overkill for a project of this size. 1000hp isn’t rocket science and has been done many times.

For 1000whp you are going to need a turbo with at least a 70mm compressor wheel (95+ lb/min flow rate)

Thank you for that bit of info. I needed to figure turbo size in just haven't gotten around to it. 70mm inducer check.

 

[Brian Phelps]

86mm cans = 86mm pistons.

No I had the wrong cam size they are Crowe's Custom 288's I believe that's what they are called. As it is they don't seem very Street friendly.

 

[Brian Phelps]

So new issue the throttlebody and intake are way too big to even attach the throttle cables so till I figure that out that's going to have to go back on the rear burner. Intake that is so all i can do now is injectors and and turbo stock intake manifold. Thanks for all the help. You guys rock.

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[Brian Phelps]

Ah okay, so you've run at least part of this configuration already. Could you list what has changed or what you intend to change since the last time this was running so we know what problems you're seeing?


Is there a reason you're planning for higher fuel pressure from the start? I admit I'm not the most knowledgeable on the very high HP builds, but it's usually a lot easier to control fuel with the stock 3 bar/43.5 psi fuel pressure, and the only times I've seen people turn up the pressure are when they're trying to get just a little more out of the injectors that they already have before upgrading. The low impedance EV1 injectors that you have are already going to be tough to accommodate, and other companies like Fuel Injector Clinic, Deatschwerks, and Injector Dynamics have 2150cc through 2600cc high impedance injectors that could support your power goal at the standard 3 bar pressure and have much better idle and low load control.

I figured that was probably the case. If you aren't able to deal with the driveability issues that come from such a large throttle body, you could try fabricating a larger throttle body cable wheel to decrease the sensitivity at the expense of not opening the throttle all the way.

ECMLink will be fine for now, but it can't handle certain types of mods. It only works with the stock ignition system, for example, and you'll need something more powerful to get to 500hl/L.

I'm assuming you have a 255 lph pump, which would get you up to halfway there but would be fine for now. Full Blown makes a Double Pumper that can hold two in tank fuel pumps to give you enough flow for what you need, but that can absolutely be a down the road thing.

I don't know anything at all about the 3000GT AWD system's power limits but I'd love to see someone do the swap. It has been talked about a lot in the past and I've seen 3000GTs with 4G63s but nothing the other direction. That would be a fun project to watch develop!

I have video of it running if you would like to see it let me know. Message me privately and I'll send the footage.