Car wont start after black puff of smoke

[rocker_topper]

Ok i took my gst out for a spin today and was playing around. I got on it pretty hard in 2nd and rode it till about 6000 rpm. When i did the car puffed black smoke and shut off. The car still turns over fine just wont start. Code scan says nothing. my concern is that it jumped time as on the inside part of the timing belt. Side closest to the engine there are a couple nicks. The belt is still intact and taught but just a couple small defects in it. Any ideas before i break into the timing and snatch this head to check it?

 

[RvlutionMtrsprt]

Check for boost leaks then check compression and go from there.

 

[rocker_topper]

Check for boost leaks then check compression and go from there.

If the balance shaft belt failed it would definately cause the timing belt to fail right?

 

[RvlutionMtrsprt]

It can, but its not a guarantee. I've seen them completely shredded up and stuffed behind the timing belt yet hadn't caused a timing belt failure. If the belt failed at 6k you probably would have heard the impending train wreck of pistons meeting valves face to face.

 

[rocker_topper]

It can, but its not a guarantee. I've seen them completely shredded up and stuffed behind the timing belt yet hadn't caused a timing belt failure. If the belt failed at 6k you probably would have heard the impending train wreck of pistons meeting valves face to face.

well like i said the timing belt is intact and has proper tension. Think maybe the balance ahaft belt could still have failed? And if so will the balance shaft belt failure cause it to not run?

 

[zanderson]

If the balance shaft belt failed it would definately cause the timing belt to fail right?

The balance shaft belt failing is a common reason for the timing belt to skip. If you do a compression check it will tell you a lot more. If your timing skipped you valves will be opening at the wrong time, thus compression testing will show low to no compression on those cylinders. Could also be head gasket. I would sugest a compression test, then after that a leak down test.

The compression test will tell you if you have a problem and a leak down test will help you to narrow the problem down.

 

[rocker_topper]

The balance shaft belt failing is a common reason for the timing belt to skip. If you do a compression check it will tell you a lot more. If your timing skipped you valves will be opening at the wrong time, thus compression testing will show low to no compression on those cylinders. Could also be head gasket. I would sugest a compression test, then after that a leak down test.

The compression test will tell you if you have a problem and a leak down test will help you to narrow the problem down.

Ok well in the event it has skipped due to balance shaft belt failure. Is it better to do a bse or just replace the belt?

 

[RvlutionMtrsprt]

Black smoke is fuel, aka boost leak. Either belt failing will not cause black smoke. Head gasket blowing will generally be white smoke from coolant and/or blue from oil.
You should check your intercooler pipes for a loose connection.
Doing the bse is a lot more work than just doing the belt.

 

[rocker_topper]

Black smoke is fuel, aka boost leak. Either belt failing will not cause black smoke. Head gasket blowing will generally be white smoke from coolant and/or blue from oil.
You should check your intercooler pipes for a loose connection.
Doing the bse is a lot more work than just doing the belt.

Yeah but a loose ic pipe wouldnt cause it to not start would it? And that also doesnt explain the small rough spots on the motor side of the timing belt. My best guess is going to be balance shaft belt failure. but my concern now is with my valves. If my timing belt is still intact and turns how likely is it that i have bent valves? I dont remember any alarming noises in the motor when this happened

 

[thomcasey]

If the boost leak is bad enough, it would keep it form starting

 

[RvlutionMtrsprt]

If you blew a connection off in the piping it would probably not start. As for the bent valves, a compression check is the best way to determine if that happened. No, it does not explain the marks on the timing belt. Those marks could be related to the and they might be a completely different issue. Try turning the motor over by hand to check if the timing marks are lined up.

 

[rocker_topper]

If you blew a connection off in the piping it would probably not start. As for the bent valves, a compression check is the best way to determine if that happened. No, it does not explain the marks on the timing belt. Those marks could be related to the and they might be a completely different issue. Try turning the motor over by hand to check if the timing marks are lined up.

Well to check all timing marks i will have to remove the timing cover. When i do that ill know for certain whether the belt failed or not. I just priced both timing and balance shaft belts and together they are cheaper than just the timing belt for a 420a. Thank god!!!! Lol its raining today and i have no covered area to work under so im sol on looking at it today but if its clear tomorrow ill be tearing it down. How hard is it to get to the timing components on the 4g63? Im fairly new to this platform. Can work a 420a over though and i know it wasnt to bad on it.

 

[RvlutionMtrsprt]

You don't need to pull the cover. Use the harmonic balancer to check tdc and pull the top cover to check the cam timing.

 

[zanderson]

In order to check timing you are going to have to pull the cover, you need to ensure ALL the timining marks line up. Although you may have boost leaks, they arn't going to keep the motor from starting. Check for fuel, then spark. Let us know what you have/ dont have. Also post your compression numbers. Qith that information we can narrow this down.

 

[Backinajiffy12]

Pull the motor do a timing belt and elim the balance shaft....(I skimmed and scanned dont know if the BS belt failed). If not boost leak test, compression test.

 

[rocker_topper]

Auto-merged with previous post to prevent "bumping" within a 24 hour period Tips on avoiding the auto-merge feature - http:/w if the BS belt failed). If not boost leak test, compression test.[/QUOTE]

Is it required that you pull the engine to do a timing belt on this car? It looks relatively easy from just looking at it. My biggest problem is im new to the 4g63/64 platform. Anyone able to point me to a full write up with pics on a timing belt replacement job?

Engine turns over smooth by hand with a couple of spots of resistance from compression strokes. Havent done a boost leak test but I did inspect all ic piping and vacuum lines which all seem fine. Yet to pull the timing cover off due to a hectic past couple of evenings. Scared to try a spark test atm though. Dont know if its the bs belt broken or not. If it is i dont want it snapping my timing belt trying to do a spark test on it. Fuel was good though. Ive heard problems from an, "Ignition Power Transistor" can sometimes cause a no spark problem. Anyone able to point me to that thing and school me on how to test it?

Oh, and by the way I found a pretty informative writeup on the timing belt and balance shaft belt replacement. Just one question about that, is the balance shaft belt for the 4g64 the same as a 4g63 balance shaft belt? The reason i ask is because a close friend of mine just bought someone on heres bottom end for a 98 4g64 and he already bought new belts for it and decided not to even build it. So if the bs belt is the same ill snag it from him for a sweet deal. Same for timing belt too.

You don't need to pull the cover. Use the harmonic balancer to check tdc and pull the top cover to check the cam timing.

Wont the car not run if it skipped a couple teeth on say the oil pump?

 

[zanderson]

Here great timing belt write up:
Timing Belt VFAQ

If the timing belt skipped on any of the gears you have a problem, when you get a chance pull the lover and upper timing covers. Try to align all the mark(they will all line up on the compression stroke of the #1 cylinder) if they dont line up theres your problem, also when the marks on the cam gears are lined up there should be 39 teeth from mark to mark. If all the marks dont line up you found your problem. If they do then start checking for fuel and stark. Post what you find and I'll try and keep checking back, otherwise there are many knowledgable people on here that are always willing to help. The more you help yourself by doing research the more apt people are to help and the more understanding you will have of what might be going on.

And for your other question, the mototr doesnt have to come ou, but in my opinion it is way easier.

 

[RvlutionMtrsprt]

If the oil pump/rear balance shaft skipped the only thing that would happen is a bad vibration from the balance shafts no longer being in time. Just check the timing as I suggested above. Also check compression and go over your intercooler pipes.

 

[rocker_topper]

If the oil pump/rear balance shaft skipped the only thing that would happen is a bad vibration from the balance shafts no longer being in time. Just check the timing as I suggested above. Also check compression and go over your intercooler pipes.

Just wanted to let you know, im slowly but surely working on it. I havent made much progress though. Ive felt like crap the past couple days. Caught some kind of bug. I do however have only the crank pulley and bottom part of the timing cover left to take off before i reveal the timing components. Ill try to break into that tomorrow afternoon. Between this bug and the afternoon rain in florida ive been kinda hard pressed for a good time to work on this thing. I will say though that i rotated the crank by hand, and the timing marks on the cam gears still align, but thats not to say the crank is in the right spot when they do. I will confirm this tomorrow and get back with you guys. Thanks for all your help so far guys.

 

[xxNocturnalxx]

Why not just do a compression test? You can usually rent one from any parts store for free or cheap.

 

[rocker_topper]

Why not just do a compression test? You can usually rent one from any parts store for free or cheap.

Ive Already rented the tester, but because as I feared the balance shaft belt had broken, was wrapped around the timing belt, and upon doing a compression test would have most likely caused the timing belt to completely fail, causing damage to the engine. Before I did ANYTHING to the engine, I wanted to inspect the timing side of the engine. I pulled the balance shaft belt out and now I am going to do a compression test and check the results. shouldnt i put new belts and retime before i do a compression test though?


found this timing kit, would it be sufficient?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Timing-Belt...Parts_Accessories&hash=item3cb348b78f&vxp=mtr

 

[DSMTyson]

Alright, you need to update your car to a GST instead of the "98 Eclipse N/T.

No that timing kit is horrible. You could probably make do with those bearings and water pump. But you need either a Gates or OEM timing belt, and an OEM hydraulic tentioner.

 

[rocker_topper]

Alright, you need to update your car to a GST instead of the "98 Eclipse N/T.

No that timing kit is horrible. You could probably make do with those bearings and water pump. But you need either a Gates or OEM timing belt, and an OEM hydraulic tentioner.

can you guy post some links to everything i would need to do a timing component change on this car? I wanna change everything thats in that kit out and also the hydraulic tensioner as well.

 

[Gasolinebaptism]

This thread is terrible. Everyone is giving conflicting advice, the OP isn't following hardly any of it because he heard hooves and thought zebra's instead of horses..
As was previously stated you can check cam timing with the lower timing cover still on, there is a mark on the harmonic balancer that aligns with the mark on the lower timing cover. Now if your cam marks are still good, you still have belt tension, and the harmonic balancer mark lines up on the timing cover, then you have plenty of mechanical timing for the car to start.
Again, I'm just looking for horses, you may chase those Zebra's as much as you like.
Chances are you have a giant boost leak, that's if you have rotated the crank by hand and not noticed any issues.
Again, as someone has previously stated, a Balance shaft belt that has skipped time will not cause a no start, neither will an oil pump that has jumped. But typically an oil pump will not jump time.

Now here is the concept of the black puff of smoke and the no start from the "horses" perspective with these cars.
You were romping on it pretty hard at 6k rpm, under full boost. that boost blew off and intercooler connection. Now with that blown intercooler connection, when you turn over the engine, the path with the least resistance for air to make it to your throttle body and into your engine, is no longer your restricive air filter, it is now your completely unrestriced open to atmosphere hole in the intercooler piping. -so you're driving along at full boost, the intercooler connection blows, for a split second the car is still dumping fuel in, because the turbo is still spooled and therefore the MAF is still reading a ton of air. You go extremely rich, and you get a black puff of smoke out the exhaust.

If it turns out not to be a boost leak, then check the compression.
Okay, there are a few knicks in the timing belt, and should be replaced, but it sounds like a car that is new to you, those knicks may have been there when you bought the car, and you didn't inspect every inch of it, if any. That's okay, now you know that the belt should be replaced, and more power to you for doing the job, but I think you shoould seriously take the advice given and do the easy things first that you can do to figure out the problem.
Remember, if you hear hooves, think horses and not wild striped animals of Africa..

Also, a quick google search brought me to this, from one of our extremely reputable vendors.
Complete DSM Timing Belt Replacement Kit - Modern Automotive Performance

 

[rocker_topper]

This thread is terrible. Everyone is giving conflicting advice, the OP isn't following hardly any of it because he heard hooves and thought zebra's instead of horses..
As was previously stated you can check cam timing with the lower timing cover still on, there is a mark on the harmonic balancer that aligns with the mark on the lower timing cover. Now if your cam marks are still good, you still have belt tension, and the harmonic balancer mark lines up on the timing cover, then you have plenty of mechanical timing for the car to start.
Again, I'm just looking for horses, you may chase those Zebra's as much as you like.
Chances are you have a giant boost leak, that's if you have rotated the crank by hand and not noticed any issues.
Again, as someone has previously stated, a Balance shaft belt that has skipped time will not cause a no start, neither will an oil pump that has jumped. But typically an oil pump will not jump time.

Now here is the concept of the black puff of smoke and the no start from the "horses" perspective with these cars.
You were romping on it pretty hard at 6k rpm, under full boost. that boost blew off and intercooler connection. Now with that blown intercooler connection, when you turn over the engine, the path with the least resistance for air to make it to your throttle body and into your engine, is no longer your restricive air filter, it is now your completely unrestriced open to atmosphere hole in the intercooler piping. -so you're driving along at full boost, the intercooler connection blows, for a split second the car is still dumping fuel in, because the turbo is still spooled and therefore the MAF is still reading a ton of air. You go extremely rich, and you get a black puff of smoke out the exhaust.

If it turns out not to be a boost leak, then check the compression.
Okay, there are a few knicks in the timing belt, and should be replaced, but it sounds like a car that is new to you, those knicks may have been there when you bought the car, and you didn't inspect every inch of it, if any. That's okay, now you know that the belt should be replaced, and more power to you for doing the job, but I think you shoould seriously take the advice given and do the easy things first that you can do to figure out the problem.
Remember, if you hear hooves, think horses and not wild striped animals of Africa..

Also, a quick google search brought me to this, from one of our extremely reputable vendors.
Complete DSM Timing Belt Replacement Kit - Modern Automotive Performance

thanks for the info. the nicks are new, i thoroughly inspected the timing belt when i got the car. The balance shaft belt is broken, which im assuming is what caused the nicks in the belt. As stated previously they are on the motor side of the belt which is where the balance shaft belt rides so. Pulled the timing cover off today and found that out. Im about to go do a compression test right now. Will post numbers when i finish. As far as boost leaks, i have none. Performed a full inspection and even went as far as to take all the IC piping off and put it all back together. I heard from a friend that spraying the lips of the IC piping with Hairspray works good as a sort of non permanent glue. Anyone else ever heard of this? Going to do compression test now, will return in a few minutes with the results.