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2G Car Tries to Die When Push in Clutch

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jukematt

10+ Year Contributor
291
38
Jun 13, 2009
Portland Metro, Oregon
I have been trying to diagnose this issue for over a week now but becoming increasingly stumped. I've read countless threads on the same issue but haven't found any that apply to me.

Car sits idling fully warmed up in neutral. I push in the clutch. I do not try and put it in gear, just push the clutch in while in neutral, and the RPMs drop and the car tries to die.

If the engine is cold and I start it up, pushing in the clutch causes the RPMs to SLIGHTLY fluctuate but nothing like when it is fully warmed up.

Background:
A week after I get the car up and running with a new engine (read my profile for that story), the car is running smooth without any issues. I take it into a local car audio shop to install new speakers and a new alarm system. All good, no issues. 3 days later I go back in to have them install a new amp, subwoofer, and a new deck. They call me up telling my car is ready. I go in, start up the car, the guy shows me the new audio system. When I'm ready to go, I push in the clutch to shift into gear and the car immediately dies. I start her up again, let her idle for a second, seemingly no issues, I push the clutch in, the car immediately dies. I go back in the store and tell the guy at the counter who has been my primary contact and he is baffled. He talks to the installer, who messes with it for a bit before taking it into the back to check everything for around 40 minutes or so and finds nothing. They lead me back there and I don't' see anything out of the ordinary. We try a few things like disconnecting the power cable from the battery for the new amp, checking voltage, hooking up a device that checks if the battery or alternator are bad, etc. and can't find anything that is causing it.

Thankfully, I live only a couple of miles away from the store so I limp back. I think the car is trying to compensate since now in Neutral idling it doesn't immediately die anymore when pushing in the clutch, but it heavily bogs down, surges a little, then tries to die if I keep holding it in. But when driving, RPMs drop quicker at higher RPMs when pushing in the clutch so it tries to die every time.

I don't know if it is just a coincidence that this happened after a new amp/sub/deck install or if it is something they did. I don't know what all they touched when working on the car and naturally I'm sure they aren't going to blame themselves unless I find it is something they did. But with disconnecting power from the amp and the deck, and still having the same issue, I just don't know.

Self Checks, some after reading the forums:
Years ago I unplugged the switch on the clutch pedal that prevents you from starting the car with the clutch out. Still unplugged.

I did another boost leak test but it seems to be the same as before (I did one before I first started the new engine). I have the known leak at the throttle body (I think I need to rebuild the thing). There was a minor leak at the stock fuel pressure regulator I didn't notice before, not where it bolts to the fuel rail, but the regulator itself where the "hat" portion sort of folds over. I put a bunch of RTV over it as a temporary fix and let it sit for two days before starting again just to determine if that could cause the issue. No change.

I checked my ISC and it's good, I repeatedly checked my vacuum hoses to determine if there was one they bumped and disconnected or something. I have never tuned my car in the years I've had it so it has the stock tune as far as I'm aware.

I blow checked my PCV valve before installing the valve cover on my new engine but have not checked it again since the issue started. One thing I did with the new engine is install a check valve and a metal/plastic fuel filter as a catch can in between the PCV valve and intake manifold (credit to an old thread on here that details different catch can setups), along with a Mishimoto catch can between the valve cover and air intake. But both were done prior to the new engine starting. To rule out any new issues there, I bypassed both those mods and hooked up a direct hose for each like stock. No change.

What could possibly even cause the RPMs to drop when idling in Neutral?! Maybe there is something I don't understand about our clutch system but there shouldn't be any load on the engine when pushing in the clutch in Neutral right?

I'm at a loss. Help? Please and thank you!
 
Yeah agreed, that's enough movement to say the thrust bearings are nearly gone.

If you want a second opinion the best answer would be to send your oil in for analysis, but the motor is currently getting resistance from the crankshaft hitting the block. Oil analysis will confirm bearing materials in the oil. With the noise as well, you should be able to see damage to the crank when you remove the oil pan and look up into the crank. You could also do an oil change and cut your old filter open and cut open the filter, I bet it will be filled with small metal particles

Sorry man, time to talk to the shop about the crankshaft thrust bearings being bad

Basically the crank is supposed to stay centered in the block by riding on thrust bearings. The crank moving out and in like that signifies the thrust bearings being bad. Most likely the crank sensor is losing signal from the movement and that is why the car will shut off on its own when the clutch is pushed
 
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I will call the company tomorrow. What scares me though is that they have a 6 month warranty and it took me almost 6 months to get the car running from when I received the engine. And now the warranty is technically expired by about two weeks. Hopefully I get lucky though.

I'll drain my oil again and look. When I drained it at 40 miles, I didn't notice any metal but that was technically before I had the issue. I have only driven the car a few miles since then. It has idled for much longer than it has been driven since that oil change.
 
I called the company and the guy said to send them the videos I took along with a measurement. I didn't take the time and effort to do a full lock-to-lock measurement, so I just measured the movement from pushing in the clutch that can be seen in the video. I measured .018". Elsewhere on this site I found that it should be between .002-.007 with a service limit of .009 (and that is full lock-to-lock movement, not just from the clutch which can probably be considered centered then to one side.

Anyway, I called them again today since it's been almost a week since I sent the e-mail. He said he hasn't got a chance to look at it but I can ship the engine back to them (at my expense) and they will inspect it. He said they want to accommodate me, even though it's technically outside their warranty. Major pain to pull the engine out again and remove all the parts, but I gotta believe that this is for sure the problem. I don't know if they will fix it for free or if they will want me to pay for some of it due to outside of warranty, but we will see.
 
I got the engine out and was able to get a better measurement for full side-to-side movement. .025". But, there wasn't anything crazy in the oil pan. It makes me wonder... If they did install the split thrust bearings which came in the late 98-99, I believe the side pieces are separate and maybe they forgot to install them? I don't know.

I'm thinking of doing a build thread to keep things updated there since technically this thread is resolved.

The last video I posted no one commented on but is that thumping noise normal? It is probably out of topic because I remember it from my last engine from years ago, but couldn't recall if that was before or after I spun a rod bearing with it back in the day.
 
No its not normal. Its most likely a rotational noise of the crank hitting the block, or your flywheel hitting the starter, or your flywheel contacting the block

You wouldnt find large chunks, you would be finding glitter, and specs of fine particle metal in the oil filter media.

As to what caused it, I dont know. They could have used a damaged crank shaft to rebuild your motor

 
You wouldnt find large chunks, you would be finding glitter, and specs of fine particle metal in the oil filter media.
I'm thinking back to when I spun a rod bearing. It looked like a ton of gold in the pan. This time around, there were some fine particles but just wasn't nearly as bad comparatively. But that's all the reference I have.
 
Oil pan is off. Nothing crazy looking up there that I can see.
On the youtube videos I've seen on the subject you should be able to wedge a pry bar against the crank to get the crank to move left or right, and you can inspect the areas of the crank where it would knock against the block to see if there are any shiny or grooved surfaces on the side of the crank shaft next to the rod caps
 
On the youtube videos I've seen on the subject you should be able to wedge a pry bar against the crank to get the crank to move left or right, and you can inspect the areas of the crank where it would knock against the block to see if there are any shiny or grooved surfaces on the side of the crank shaft next to the rod caps
Yeah that's how I got the real side-to-side measurement. It's hard to see up in there though and since I won't be disassembling the block myself I'll have to wait and see what that shop says once I send it back to them.
 
UPDATE:
The shop said that everything looks perfect except for the two side-to-side thrust washers. He said they were completely worn out.

He kept blaming my clutch, saying it's too heavy and I should put a stock clutch in. I was just trying to process what else it could be knowing it isn't my clutch but the only thing I could say is that I have basically a stock replacement (ACT 2100). He said, "Yeah but who really specs those out, you should get an OEM one."

He said to give him a couple of weeks to get parts then will get back to me. That next call I'll be sure and point out it isn't my clutch. The reason I know this is that I did not replace the clutch when I got thr new engine. I reused the same clutch that I installed back in like 2009 or 2010 and ran until my engine went out in 2016.

I did have to replace my master and slave cylinder when I put the new engine in so when I get the engine back I'll look at how much the clutch fork is supposed to move in case the master or slave is causing extra throw or maybe pedal adjustment is needed. That's the only thing I can think of if the cause was even on my end at all.
 
There is an act 2100 in my car and I did the same visual check a you did and saw no movement.

Its good that they know what they are looking at and admit it was the thrust bearings fault.

Im not sure if it even matters, but are you running poly motor mounts or stock ones?
Polyurethane ones. I have the full kit with the poly replacement sides and the inserts front and rear. Also, they installed the BSE kit when they built it.
 
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