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2G Car still won’t start

98gstJames

Proven Member
111
23
May 25, 2022
Virginia
Alright so I’ve been trying to get my car to start and I’ve done a lot, what does it sound like my car is missing now? I’ll add a video, I’m just lost

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pauleyman

DSM Wiseman
8,187
2,757
Nov 19, 2011
oklahoma city, Oklahoma
Did you line up all the marks? Does the car now have a maf?
You have like 3 or 4 different threads now. Can you please stick to one thread.
 

98gstJames

Proven Member
111
23
May 25, 2022
Virginia
Did you line up all the marks? Does the car now have a maf?
You have like 3 or 4 different threads now. Can you please stick to one thread.
Yes I will post on the same thread here on out, my apologies. Yes the marks are all the lines up now, I went through and rotated the car six times and my oil pump sprocket wound up being off after the 6 rotations, so I redid the timing and everything lined up this time and after I rotated six times it still lines up, I also installed the maf and have it hooked up so all good there.
 

waltah

Proven Member
369
154
Mar 2, 2011
fairfield, Virginia
You're making progress, James. Next thing I would do is pull all the plugs, check the gaps -- 0.028 I think for turbo car but look it up. Hook up the plug wires and lay the plugs with the metal touching the valve cover, unhook the injectors, and have a confederate -- a wife can work well -- crank the car while you look at the plugs. All should be sparking as the engine turns over -- in pairs, that is two plugs always spark at the same time. 1-4 will fire, then 2-3, etc.

Yes, as Paul says stick with this one thread. My memory's not that good so I try to review the story before thinking about the latest question and if it's in different places that's not very practical.
 

98gstJames

Proven Member
111
23
May 25, 2022
Virginia
You're making progress, James. Next thing I would do is pull all the plugs, check the gaps -- 0.028 I think for turbo car but look it up. Hook up the plug wires and lay the plugs with the metal touching the valve cover, unhook the injectors, and have a confederate -- a wife can work well -- crank the car while you look at the plugs. All should be sparking as the engine turns over -- in pairs, that is two plugs always spark at the same time. 1-4 will fire, then 2-3, etc.

Yes, as Paul says stick with this one thread. My memory's not that good so I try to review the story before thinking about the latest question and if it's in different places that's not very practical.
I haven’t checked the gap on the spark plugs but I have checked for spark, I’ll have to check the order of them thought but I do know they all spark, I’ll check both and see what I get from there.
 

98gstJames

Proven Member
111
23
May 25, 2022
Virginia
I looked at the coils under the hood and saw the order they’re in is 1,4 for the first one and then 3,2 for the second one, is this the right order they should be plugged in?

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pauleyman

DSM Wiseman
8,187
2,757
Nov 19, 2011
oklahoma city, Oklahoma
Alright thank you hopefully that’ll help w starting it
It won't. You already have it like that.

The number 1 cylinder is closest to the timing belt. At the coils they are in pairs for waste spark. The first coil is 1 and 4. Doesn't matter which way. Other coil is obviously 2 and 3. It also doesn't matter which way 2/3 or 3/2.

IF and ONLY if you don't have the original 2gb ecu you would have to make a change. If it was running before in this configuration I wouldn't change it.

I don't remember you mentioning but this car does not have dsmlink? correct?
 

98gstJames

Proven Member
111
23
May 25, 2022
Virginia
IF and ONLY if you don't have the original 2gb ecu you would have to make a change. If it was running before in this configuration I wouldn't change it.

I don't remember you mentioning but this car does not have dsmlink? correct?

No my car doesn’t have dsmlink, I’ll keep it how it is then I was wondering that as well since it did start before.

How should I go about getting dsmlink? Will it help me in the long run overall?
 

pauleyman

DSM Wiseman
8,187
2,757
Nov 19, 2011
oklahoma city, Oklahoma
No my car doesn’t have dsmlink, I’ll keep it how it is then I was wondering that as well since it did start before. How should I go about getting dsmlink? Will it help me in the long run overall?
I would forget about that for now. You absolutely must solve the root problem first.
 

pauleyman

DSM Wiseman
8,187
2,757
Nov 19, 2011
oklahoma city, Oklahoma
Lets go back to basics. Did you check compression, spark and fuel? If so how did you do it? I've seen so many people say they "checked" something only to find out they simply inspected an item an didn't run any tests etc.
Fuel injected cars aren't any different than 50s era cars. They both need compression, spark, fuel and air to run. Eliminate one thing at a time. If you have changed anything you need to tell us.
 

waltah

Proven Member
369
154
Mar 2, 2011
fairfield, Virginia
Okay James -- you've got the spark wired right and you're getting spark. I always say check the gap because turbo cars must have a smaller gap to avoid causing problems for the coils/transistors but if you've seen sparks on all four plugs that's good enough for now -- just file 'check the gaps' under 'later.'

(The reason the order of the wires on a coil doesn't matter is that both ends, hence both cylinders, spark at the same time. One is near TDC on the exhaust stroke so that spark is 'wasted,' while the other is near TDC on compression and fires. 1/2 crank revolution later the other coil fires and the same thing happens for the other pair of wires.)

Next to check is fuel and the easiest thing is the fuel pump check connector -- black, blue wire I think, on the firewall right behind the throttle body. It may be taped to the harness there and may have a dummy plug in it to keep it clean. Stick a voltmeter there; when you (or assistant) start to crank it should go to 12 volts and stay there.

There are three possibilities: (1) no voltage , (2) about a second of voltage, and (3) voltage as long as the engine is turning over.

As Paul says if you've got compression, spark, air, and fuel it HAS to run. You are going to find this problem.
 

98gstJames

Proven Member
111
23
May 25, 2022
Virginia
Lets go back to basics. Did you check compression, spark and fuel? If so how did you do it?
Alright so what I’ve done to check the spark is, I pulled the plugs and laid them on the valve cover and checked for spark, good there. I then checked to make sure the firing order is right and it is.

I was going to check the wiring on the injectors today but as far as looking for fuel I pulled the high pressure plug off the end of the rail and saw fuel coming out, I also cracked the filter and saw fuel squirting out when I turned the key but as far as the injectors I’ve just looked into the cylinders and saw fuel on top of the pistons after trying to start, cylinder 1 and 2 had just barely more fuel than 3 and 4 sitting on top so that’s why I wanted to check the wiring.

As far as compression I honestly haven’t checked with any gauge or anything it just sounds like it has compression when I turn the key but I know that doesn’t mean I have it all the way across the board, I just don’t have the tools to check the pressure yet.

Im not totally sure the correct way to check for air but I thought since the car acts like it wants to start that wasn’t a problem.

I also checked the timing on it. Good there now.
 

pauleyman

DSM Wiseman
8,187
2,757
Nov 19, 2011
oklahoma city, Oklahoma
You can get a compression tool at any auto parts store. They aren't expensive. You may even be able to rent one.
Are you SURE that was fuel in the cylinder? Checking fuel at the rail etc is not an effective test. You just made sure you fuel pump works, not that the injectors work. You can listen to them with an stethoscope or use a noid light set to see if they are getting a fire signal.
Refresh my memory. Has this car ever ran in your possession? Do you have any sort of diagnostic reader? Those can be invaluable for this sort of diagnosis. Cheap bluetooth devices can use your phone as a reader.
 

98gstJames

Proven Member
111
23
May 25, 2022
Virginia
I’ll post pics of when it was firing on how the spark looks, I know since I have it, it should be good but I just want to be sure it looks right. I’ll also add the video of it firing, it put it in slow motion so you can see the sparks easier.

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You can get a compression tool at any auto parts store. They aren't expensive. You may even be able to rent one.
Are you SURE that was fuel in the cylinder? Checking fuel at the rail etc is not an effective test. You just made sure you fuel pump works, not that the injectors work. You can listen to them with an stethoscope or use a noid light set to see if they are getting a fire signal.
Refresh my memory. Has this car ever ran in your possession? Do you have any sort of diagnostic reader? Those can be invaluable for this sort of diagnosis. Cheap bluetooth devices can use your phone as a reader.
Alright I’ll definitely get one then, and I’m pretty sure it was fuel I’m not sure what else it could have been but when I smelled the plugs I can smell the fuel but use the stethoscope next to the injectors? I do not have a diagnostics tool sadly. Yes the car has ran in my possession but it didn’t run good and it started like crap. It barely started, the wiring job to the starter from the battery was completely jacked and melted when I pulled the car out of the engine bay so I rewired it.
 

pauleyman

DSM Wiseman
8,187
2,757
Nov 19, 2011
oklahoma city, Oklahoma
I would suggest the torque pro app on your phone. You can purchase a cheap blue tooth dongle on amazon for 25$ or so. App is 5$. This would allow you to look at sensor input. Some important things to check would be coolant temp (affects how much fuel is injected) and mas airflow readings (again affects fuel) and possibly TPS etc although that is likely less of an issue just to start.
Short of severe vacuum leaks or compression there shouldn't be much else to check. You haven't done anythign else since the last time car ran? Pulled out or fiddled with any wiring? Removed and reinstalled any other components?

Alright I’ll definitely get one then, and I’m pretty sure it was fuel I’m not sure what else it could have been but when I smelled the plugs I can smell the fuel but use the stethoscope next to the injectors? I do not have a diagnostics tool sadly. Yes the car has ran in my possession but it didn’t run good and it started like crap. It barely started, the wiring job to the starter from the battery was completely jacked and melted when I pulled the car out of the engine bay so I rewired it.
stethoscope can be placed directly on the injector. You will hear it click loudly with a stethoscope. tick tick tick tick etc.
 

98gstJames

Proven Member
111
23
May 25, 2022
Virginia
I would suggest the torque pro app on your phone. You can purchase a cheap blue tooth dongle on amazon for 25$ or so. App is 5$. This would allow you to look at sensor input. Some important things to check would be coolant temp (affects how much fuel is injected) and mas airflow readings (again affects fuel) and possibly TPS etc although that is likely less of an issue just to start.

Short of severe vacuum leaks or compression there shouldn't be much else to check. You haven't done anythign else since the last time car ran? Pulled out or fiddled with any wiring? Removed and reinstalled any other components?

stethoscope can be placed directly on the injector. You will hear it click loudly with a stethoscope. tick tick tick tick etc.
I’ll definitely be getting a stethoscope and checking for that.

How do I go about checking coolant temp and MAF readings? Is that with the app?

I’ve gone over the wiring in the starting system and just basically cleaned up wiring where it needed to be, I didn’t remove anything or add anything to the wiring, I just rewired where the wires melted from the battery to the starter, and there was some cracked wiring on my starter relay so I redid that as well.

I’m not sure how the guy before got it to start and run with that jerryrigged wiring job.
 
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pauleyman

DSM Wiseman
8,187
2,757
Nov 19, 2011
oklahoma city, Oklahoma
I’ll definitely be getting a stethoscope and checking for that, how do I go about checking coolant temp and maf readings? Is that with the app? I’ve gone over the wiring in the starting system and just basically cleaned up wiring where it needed to be, I didn’t remover anything or add anything to the wiring I just rewired where i the wires melted from the battery to the starter, and there was some cracked wiring on my starter relay so I redid that as well. I’m not sure how the guy before got it to start and run with that jerryrigged wiring job.
Yes you can see the coolant temp etc with the app. It's a code reader with a few extra benefits.
I would say first order of business is compression and fuel. If fuel injector is squirting then at least you know those items that tell ECU to do something are working. Doesn't mean it's correct amount of fuel but it's a start.
 
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98gstJames

Proven Member
111
23
May 25, 2022
Virginia
Yes you can see the coolant temp etc with the app. It's a code reader with a few extra benefits.

I would say first order of business is compression and fuel. If fuel injector is squirting then at least you know those items that tell ECU to do something are working. Doesn't mean it's correct amount of fuel but it's a start.
I downloaded the app and ordered the dongle to go into the car, that’ll be here on Tuesday so I’ll be able to see then, if it’s not the correct amount of fuel squirting out, how should I go about fixing that?
 
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1990TSIAWDTALON

Moderator
9,445
5,280
Nov 14, 2013
Independence, Kansas
It would just need the injectors cleaned (professionally) so they spray in a good pattern. It is $20-25 per injector at most places. I send mine into FIC, but that is because they are aftermarket injectors and their product. I believe there are members on here that can clean them, my mind doesn't come up with a name at the moment though.
 

pauleyman

DSM Wiseman
8,187
2,757
Nov 19, 2011
oklahoma city, Oklahoma
I downloaded the app and ordered the dongle to go into the car, that’ll be here on Tuesday so I’ll be able to see then, if it’s not the correct amount of fuel squirting out, how should I go about fixing that?
You make sure each thing the ecu needs is doing its job. Ecu is just a dumb computer. It needs to know input from various sensors. From that it calculates how much ignition timing and how much fuel to provide.
It will "limp" on some items if the info is non existent. For example missing maf (or simply unplugged) others can provide bad info. Coolant temp sensor is a common example.
I assume you have no check engine lights. If you do then use them to point you in the right direction.
 

98gstJames

Proven Member
111
23
May 25, 2022
Virginia
You make sure each thing the ecu needs is doing its job. Ecu is just a dumb computer. It needs to know input from various sensors. From that it calculates how much ignition timing and how much fuel to provide.
It will "limp" on some items if the info is non existent. For example missing maf (or simply unplugged) others can provide bad info. Coolant temp sensor is a common example.
I assume you have no check engine lights. If you do then use them to point you in the right direction.
So I got the stethoscope and tested the injectors. Injector 4 would occasionally tick but #3 didn’t tick and 1 and 2 went tick tick tick tick.

I ordered new injector plugs for it for 15 bucks on eBay and they’ll be here Tuesday, the wires were cracked at the end of the plug so I can’t really put a but connector on them.

I don’t think I have check engine light on, after 5 seconds with the key being on it goes out.
 
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pauleyman

DSM Wiseman
8,187
2,757
Nov 19, 2011
oklahoma city, Oklahoma
So I got the stethoscope and tested the injectors. Injector 4 would occasionally tick but #3 didn’t tick and 1 and 2 went tick tick tick tick.

I ordered new injector plugs for it for 15 bucks on eBay and they’ll be here Tuesday, the wires were cracked at the end of the plug so I can’t really put a but connector on them.

I don’t think I have check engine light on, after 5 seconds with the key being on it goes out.
Now you might be getting somewhere. The fast tick tick tick is what you should hear. The ecu light going off is correct. Even so you may still have an ecu problem. Have you looked inside? Sometimes there is visible damage and corrosion and a likely culprit for mystery problems.
Good call on repairing the injector wires. You could still use a noid light set to see how they are firing but it sounds like repairs need to be made anyway. Wouldn't hurt and it's cheap. Keep plugging away.
 
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