Cam issues

[2g4me]

I got a set of Crower 272's, now the car runs kinda crappy but not horrible with them but has issues moving from a dead stop. I have to ride the clutch a bit during initial movement or the car falls on its face like its about to die for a couple seconds before it finally goes. I read on another forum that the Crower 272's have to be degreed (advance or retard) for them to work properly, i just dont remember how. Now im assuming that means i need adjustable cam gears? Well i will have to wait for those anyway and tho it ran like this i left em in for a 2-3mo out of pure laziness, but just put the stock cams back in a couple days ago and now its having trouble in boost for some reason.

Anyway...Anyone have any info on the proper way to install these, like how to or how much to degree them?

 

[keltalon]

I got a set of Crower 272's, now the car runs kinda crappy but not horrible with them but has issues moving from a dead stop. I have to ride the clutch a bit during initial movement or the car falls on its face like its about to die for a couple seconds before it finally goes. I read on another forum that the Crower 272's have to be degreed (advance or retard) for them to work properly, i just dont remember how. Now im assuming that means i need adjustable cam gears? Well i will have to wait for those anyway and tho it ran like this i left em in for a 2-3mo out of pure laziness, but just put the stock cams back in a couple days ago and now its having trouble in boost for some reason.

Anyway...Anyone have any info on the proper way to install these, like how to or how much to degree them?

Quick question just so I am on the same page your cams are crower not brian crower right? http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/cyl...t-delta-hks-272-delta-k272-bc-272-cams-2.html scroll down to post #51 and read that information. When you do get your cam gears in try this setting 5 degree advance on the intake cam and 5 degree retard on the exhaust cam. This will give you a very good starting point and you just may be surprised how the car performs.

 

[LiquidX]

Sounds silly but did you install the cams properly and get your timing correct?

 

[2g4me]

Quick question just so I am on the same page your cams are crower not brian crower right? http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/cyl...t-delta-hks-272-delta-k272-bc-272-cams-2.html scroll down to post #51 and read that information. When you do get your cam gears in try this setting 5 degree advance on the intake cam and 5 degree retard on the exhaust cam. This will give you a very good starting point and you just may be surprised how the car performs.

Yes there Crowers, not BC's.

Sounds silly but did you install the cams properly and get your timing correct?

No offense, but ya of course i did, everything was installed and set correctly.

 

[Boostdriven]

I posted this few weeks ago in a newbie forum for a guy that had BC 280s, hope it helps.

.......With those cams you should see about 10 inches of vacuum +/- 1 at about 950 rpms, if you see more then that like 15 then I woukd say something isn't set right. Your exhaust cam can be to advanced and intake cam can be to retarded.

Now don't go wrenching on your cam gears with out knowing the actual position of your cams. There is a fairly simple and easy way of doing it with out the degree wheel. All you need is a dial indicator or whatever the proper name is.

First you want to start the engine and run it for a bit so it warms up to about 150 degree or so, this will get your litters filled with oil. As the motor is cooling off pull your valve cover off and turn the motor by hand till the cams on piston #1 are both in the closed position or just top read center (TDC) on the compression stroke. I looked up the specs on BC 280 cams and it said intake is 218 degrees at .050" valve lift and the exhaust is 216 this means that the crank will rotate 218 degrees intake and 216 degree exhaust from the time the valve is .050" openings to .050" closing. When you are ready to start degreeing the cams set your dial indicator on top of the retainer of an exhaust valve on piston #1 at closed position. Set the indicator to 0 so you know when the valve is closed. Turn the motor over so that the piston is at TDC going on the intake stroke,. In this position your exhaust valve has just closed or almost there and the intake valve just starting to open. If your cams are right on then your dial indicator should show about .050" lift on the exhaust valve. Down by the crank pulley on the timing belt cover you have some timing marks, 0¡¡¡¡5¡¡¡¡10 make sure the timing mark on the crank pulley lines up with 0 and then loosen up the bolts on your exhaust cam gear, when the bolts are loose you should be able to turn the cam using a 17mm wrench. Turn the cam to where the dial indicator reads 0 again and the valve is fully closed just to make sure nothing got bumped in the process then turn the cam back to where the dial indicator reads .050" lift, tighten up the cam gear bolts and u have just degreed ## exhaust cam. If the exhaust cam has 216 degrees duration at .050" lift then this means your exhaust valve will begin to open at 36 degrees before bottom dead center (BBDC) 216-180=36

Now the intake cam. Set your dial indicator on the top of a retainer on the intake valve of piston #1 and make sure the valve is in closed position and set the dial indicator to 0. Turn the motor to TDC with piston #1 going on the intake stroke. In this position your intake valve has just started to open. You want to set your intake valve so it starts to open at about 6 degrees before top dead center (BTDC) set your timing mark on the crank pulley to 6 degrees BTDC and loosen up the bold on your intake cam gear. Turn the cam back till the valve is fully closed and the dial indicator reads 0 then turn the cam back to where the valve starts to open and the dial indicator reads .050". Tighten up the cam gear bolts and you have just degrees your intake cam. If the intake cam has 218 degrees of duration at .050" lift this mean your intake cam will be at .050" lift closing at 32 degrees after bottom dead center (ABDC) 218-6-180=32

If you set all that right your car should idle at about 10 inches of vacuum and sound like a camed car should......

 

[JusMX141]

I got a set of Crower 272's, now the car runs kinda crappy but not horrible with them but has issues moving from a dead stop. I have to ride the clutch a bit during initial movement or the car falls on its face like its about to die for a couple seconds before it finally goes.

You can't just drop cams in and go. Depending on the cam and the duration, it may require a complete re-tune of your car's idle and low-speed fuel trims. The increased overlap is drawing more air into the engine at idle than the factory ECU settings are able to correct.

 

[2g4me]

You can't just drop cams in and go. Depending on the cam and the duration, it may require a complete re-tune of your car's idle and low-speed fuel trims. The increased overlap is drawing more air into the engine at idle than the factory ECU settings are able to correct.

There definitely not a drop in and go cam because the car was retuned and i cannot not matter how high i set my boost controller hold over 16psi of boost when before i was holding 23-24. There must be some overlap of the valves for this to be happening, which would also make sense for the car to fall on its face for a few moments if i dont ride the clutch moving from a stop. I know they have to be degreed because i read an article about them and i dont remember where from, or how much they were adjusted in whichever direction. Just sucks cause everything im finding now are for BC's, these are Crower's.

I posted this few weeks ago in a newbie forum for a guy that had BC 280s, hope it helps.

.......With those cams you should see about 10 inches of vacuum +/- 1 at about 950 rpms, if you see more then that like 15 then I woukd say something isn't set right. Your exhaust cam can be to advanced and intake cam can be to retarded.

Now don't go wrenching on your cam gears with out knowing the actual position of your cams. There is a fairly simple and easy way of doing it with out the degree wheel. All you need is a dial indicator or whatever the proper name is.

First you want to start the engine and run it for a bit so it warms up to about 150 degree or so, this will get your litters filled with oil. As the motor is cooling off pull your valve cover off and turn the motor by hand till the cams on piston #1 are both in the closed position or just top read center (TDC) on the compression stroke. I looked up the specs on BC 280 cams and it said intake is 218 degrees at .050" valve lift and the exhaust is 216 this means that the crank will rotate 218 degrees intake and 216 degree exhaust from the time the valve is .050" openings to .050" closing. When you are ready to start degreeing the cams set your dial indicator on top of the retainer of an exhaust valve on piston #1 at closed position. Set the indicator to 0 so you know when the valve is closed. Turn the motor over so that the piston is at TDC going on the intake stroke,. In this position your exhaust valve has just closed or almost there and the intake valve just starting to open. If your cams are right on then your dial indicator should show about .050" lift on the exhaust valve. Down by the crank pulley on the timing belt cover you have some timing marks, 0¡¡¡¡5¡¡¡¡10 make sure the timing mark on the crank pulley lines up with 0 and then loosen up the bolts on your exhaust cam gear, when the bolts are loose you should be able to turn the cam using a 17mm wrench. Turn the cam to where the dial indicator reads 0 again and the valve is fully closed just to make sure nothing got bumped in the process then turn the cam back to where the dial indicator reads .050" lift, tighten up the cam gear bolts and u have just degreed ## exhaust cam. If the exhaust cam has 216 degrees duration at .050" lift then this means your exhaust valve will begin to open at 36 degrees before bottom dead center (BBDC) 216-180=36

Now the intake cam. Set your dial indicator on the top of a retainer on the intake valve of piston #1 and make sure the valve is in closed position and set the dial indicator to 0. Turn the motor to TDC with piston #1 going on the intake stroke. In this position your intake valve has just started to open. You want to set your intake valve so it starts to open at about 6 degrees before top dead center (BTDC) set your timing mark on the crank pulley to 6 degrees BTDC and loosen up the bold on your intake cam gear. Turn the cam back till the valve is fully closed and the dial indicator reads 0 then turn the cam back to where the valve starts to open and the dial indicator reads .050". Tighten up the cam gear bolts and you have just degrees your intake cam. If the intake cam has 218 degrees of duration at .050" lift this mean your intake cam will be at .050" lift closing at 32 degrees after bottom dead center (ABDC) 218-6-180=32

If you set all that right your car should idle at about 10 inches of vacuum and sound like a camed car should......

This would all be good info...If i had BC's, i have Crower's. Totally different brand/company. BC's are regrinds using stock cams. Crower's are made fresh from blank rods, which is why you'll find that BC's are one of the cheapest aftermarket cams available, also yielding the lowest results for each size.

 

[keltalon]

.

Dude this is totally false! bc cams are Made from the same aerospace grade, 8620 steel billet blanks that kelford, gsc, comp ect because all of them buy thier blanks from the same producer. Its this type of misinformation ^^^^^^that is poison to the forum

 

[Boostdriven]

I was only describing an easy way to degree cams, the process is not cam specific but a general way of doing it.
If I'm correct I believe this is the specs on your cams, I got this off crower website
Mitsubishi / DSM - 4G63 Performance level 4 - Stage 3 - 3/4 Race - Recommended for strip and some street. Lope at idle. Requires #84175. INT/EXH - Dur @ .050" Lift: 196°/198° RR: 1.7/1.7 Gross Lift: .411"/.391" LSA: 105° RPM: 1100 to 8250 Redline: 8750
You can use the process I described to degree those cam and I'm almost certain your car will come alive. I've tuned a customers car on a dyno that should have made over 400 HP but no matter what I did or how much boost I ran it would not make more then 300 HP and the power would drop off after 5500 rpms and this was on a 2.3L stocker. Customer did not want to pay to have us degree his cams until he seen the dyno numbers and then he changed his mind. I used the process I described before to degree his cam and the difference was dramatic. I can't remember now what cams he had, I think they were forced performance 272s but I had to degree each cam about 10 degrees. It was almost a year ago now so I can't remember which cam was which way but I do know the difference in power was massive. I didn't dyno the car afterwards but it would loose traction rolling in to it in 3rd where before it would barely loose traction in 2nd.

 

[2g4me]

Dude this is totally false! bc cams are Made from the same aerospace grade, 8620 steel billet blanks that kelford, gsc, comp ect because all of them buy thier blanks from the same producer. Its this type of misinformation ^^^^^^that is poison to the forum

Oh im sooo sorrry to disappoint you considering its the same info i got FROM here. Ill be sure to disregard anything from here anymore then and tell all my friends to stay away since this site is obviously "poison". Altho BC's are regrinds, ive had them before.

 

[keltalon]

Oh im sooo sorrry to disappoint you considering its the same info i got FROM here. Ill be sure to disregard anything from here anymore then and tell all my friends to stay away since this site is obviously "poison". Altho BC's are regrinds, ive had them before.

So it oviously seems that you have been the victim of some sort of scam and I am sorry that has happened to you. BC are not regrinds maybe someone sold you a set of cams inwhich they told you they were regrinds shame on that person, and they need a good spanking. post that link where you got the information about BC being a regrind I have been on these boards for a long time and would love to see it.

Here is another thing many have tried to stay away from dsmtuners but found that they can't why? because its the largest and most informative dsm cummunity on the web. Most of the guys that has been on the site are here to help each other. If someone post something that you don't agree with then the best thing to do is disregard it and do what makes you happy.

If you don't like BC cams and think they are cheap and want to run crower then thats your personal choice and most of us will respect that choice. But when you post information such as BC cams are regrinds ,when they are not, a corrective post will be made so members can disregard such a false statement. I have tested serval cams and I have been more than happy with my BC272s. They are super streetable and I can't ask for anything more infact I am not the only fwd dsm that thinks that bc272 best street cam richard33 broke into the 10s with them on his fwd eclipse check it out <iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/SV3y4ctXqa8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[chadillac2820]

I have a set of delta 274's and s set of bc 280's. Side by side, the bc's are obviously not regrinds and bc's quality is top notch. Not to mention fantastic customer service.

 

[2g4me]

So it oviously seems that you have been the victim of some sort of scam and I am sorry that has happened to you. BC are not regrinds maybe someone sold you a set of cams inwhich they told you they were regrinds shame on that person, and they need a good spanking. post that link where you got the information about BC being a regrind I have been on these boards for a long time and would love to see it.

Here is another thing many have tried to stay away from dsmtuners but found that they can't why? because its the largest and most informative dsm cummunity on the web. Most of the guys that has been on the site are here to help each other. If someone post something that you don't agree with then the best thing to do is disregard it and do what makes you happy.

If you don't like BC cams and think they are cheap and want to run crower then thats your personal choice and most of us will respect that choice. But when you post information such as BC cams are regrinds ,when they are not, a corrective post will be made so members can disregard such a false statement. I have tested serval cams and I have been more than happy with my BC272s. They are super streetable and I can't ask for anything more infact I am not the only fwd dsm that thinks that bc272 best street cam richard33 broke into the 10s with them on his fwd eclipse check it out <iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/SV3y4ctXqa8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Ok first of all, i never said BC's were crap in any way or were at all not streetable, i simply explained what was explained to me on this forum so if you want to bust anyone's balls over something stupid like this, be my guest...But i am not the source of the problem. It was a very long time ago that i read the info, i doubt the link is even anywhere on here anymore, im sure the mods by now have removed it.

 

[keltalon]

Ok first of all, i never said BC's were crap in any way or were at all not streetable, i simply explained what was explained to me on this forum so if you want to bust anyone's balls over something stupid like this, be my guest...But i am not the source of the problem. It was a very long time ago that i read the info, i doubt the link is even anywhere on here anymore, im sure the mods by now have removed it.

So we have got all of this out in the open. I would like to help you with your cam issue. Did you figure out what the problem was?

 

[chadillac2820]

Ok first of all, i never said BC's were crap in any way or were at all not streetable, i simply explained what was explained to me on this forum so if you want to bust anyone's balls over something stupid like this, be my guest...But i am not the source of the problem. It was a very long time ago that i read the info, i doubt the link is even anywhere on here anymore, im sure the mods by now have removed it.

Well if you read it on the internet it has to be true right?

 

[2g4me]

So we have got all of this out in the open. I would like to help you with your cam issue. Did you figure out what the problem was?

No, i didnt, everyone was so worried about the amount of criticism they could add to the post here rather than help, that during all the BS Ive since put my stock cams back in and have a new issue to figure out now. But id rather get help from others who aren't gonna sit behind their screens and criticize me over something I'm really not even at fault for. Gotta love the forums.

 

[keltalon]

No, i didnt, everyone was so worried about the amount of criticism they could add to the post here rather than help, that during all the BS Ive since put my stock cams back in and have a new issue to figure out now. But id rather get help from others who aren't gonna sit behind their screens and criticize me over something I'm really not even at fault for. Gotta love the forums.

Well when are ready for the forum to help just let us know. These boards are the only source of comfort we get to continue to mess with these 4g63 engines