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2G Building a stronger 5 speed transmission

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@Ben-Stian

How much did they charge you for that service? Sounds like an interesting compromise. No issues with other gears for you?

It ends up being 2500-3000 by the time you pay all the customs bs. I don't think it's a great value. There were a few guys that had issues with pitting. The profile looks like it is a pretty low pressure angle, which is good for case spreading loads,but bad for tooth strength. They look like they are 14.5*, and it really leaves me with the feeling that they are cut on a mill with a form cutter, and a dividing head. Probably 8620, and not finish ground. That's not great for gear quality and life. He won't answer any questions as to material or process, so I would be leary.

It been many years ago, and doesnt seem I can go so far back in my Paypal history to find the excact pricing... he was active @ evo123.net. From memory I think it was about 1000 euro for the 4th gear. I can guarantee you it wasnt even close to 2500-3000 because I had bought the PPG gearset instead then:) I have no idea what gears/materials he use, but it looked great. Contact him for pricing.

Seems like the evo123.net dont work anymore... Here he is: https://www.facebook.com/pages/category/Automotive--Aircraft---Boat/Boldt-Mechanics-243641719142381/
 
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There was some brief discussion of matthias' gearset over on the link forums around 2015 or so. Just find his username and search his threads. From what I recall there were some issues with it and the whole project went silent. That could have all been worked out since then though.
 
The 'issue' happened on an Australian forum. It was a 3/4 gear set that was badly galled on the teeth and looked haggard after very little usage. Matthias openly shows sets that broke in his 1300-whatever HP drag car, too. In that case, the issue is raw power. I have a theory that the case in Australia happened due to heat and inadequate fluid, perhaps improper break-in as Matthias implies. I know the person who owned the failed set and think he's a great guy, he's understandably unhappy because the failure happened pretty quickly under low-stress conditions (read: boost) and he feels that Matthias didn't adequately step up to fix the issue. As far as I know, it's still business-as-usual if you want a set of gears and in the end, I wouldn't let that failure stop me from buying a set if I was in the market. I would, however, be very cautious about how I treated the car. It should have the appropriate fluid for the power level and in my opinion, any car that has the power to need straight-cut gears should be running a cooler to keep the temperatures in check, and keep that cluster lubricated at all times.
 
What goes into building the stock transmission stronger; it’s a question I’m sure many people have asked but most haven’t had answered other than the standard “buy better parts” answer. Stronger shift forks, upgraded gear sets and other parts that are extremely expensive through aftermarket businesses. What about the DIY guys , like myself, that are interested in learning to build one themselves by sourcing the correct parts from reputable sources? The best place to start figuring out what the process is for me is to search and ask questions on here since I know I always either find what I’m looking for or you guys point me in the right direction. In the long run I’m not sure if it’d be cheaper to just buy a stage 2-3 trans from somewhere or a used(I usually don’t see many but they’re usually $$$) or build a similar stage trans myself. Figuring out which parts that need to be upgraded is part of the learning process which others have learned through trial and error which helps others. I’m hoping that those who’ve built or are in the process of building a better and stronger transmission will share what there’re learning or what they’ already learned here on Tuners. At my age I’ve found myself focused on my DSM which may or may not be a good thing.:hmm:
TeamRip Engineering does not do staged rebuilds anymore, I believe I got the last one he built, but if you go to http://www.teamrip.com/tech-info/, I think you will find plenty of great info. The clutch and flywheel that I used I did on John's advice. I have a stage one to stage two build, but my 1991 drivetrain was upgraded to 93-99, as far as parts are concerned for 90-91, nada, zip, not available. I also upgraded to the 4 bolt rearend for my 1991. Love this forum a lot of great info here...thanks to all........
 
Also, if you want to know the major weaknesses of DSM transmissions, this is a bit of a cheat-sheet.

In these transmissions, everything can break. They are weak.

The 93-99 DSM gear set will shift nice but has the weakest 3rd and 4th gear setup due to the large-diameter single synchro design. The 3/4 hub and slider was a thinner version that will grenade pretty reliably at or before 400 lb-ft of torque. The 3rd and 4th gears do not like back-to-back pulls and will shred teeth with too much torque and heat.

The Evo III gear set was the best setup all-around due to the best ratios from 1-5 and double synchros on 2, 3 and 4. The forks, rails and hubs/sliders were forged and broached units which is great for strength, and the gears and shafts were shot-peened for added durability. It had a thicker hub and slider that was by far the strongest of the bunch. The 3rd and 4th gears and intermediate shaft could withstand a good amount of power, but applying 500 lb-ft of torque or doing back-to-back highway pulls would eventually strip these gears too. Evo III 3rd & 4th gears are still available, and the intermediate shaft from a DSM can be used, but the Evo III hub and slider to make it work together is unobtanium. The Evo 1-3 5th gear is extremely sought after for the taller .617 ratio, but these sold out years ago. Similarly, the Evo 1-3 1st and 2nd gears with the input shaft are long gone, too.

You'll see a common pattern here - don't do back-to-back highway pulls with a high powered car! This fatigues the gears immensely. Similarily, don't roll onto the power from low RPM because the torque spike on many setups around 4,000 RPM can make the 3rd and 4th weaker with each pull. If you're going to accelerate in 3rd and 4th, start from higher RPM to avoid the 3,500 to 4,500 range. Even in my light Evo with a transmission cooler and built to the max with the best OEM parts, I won't be acting like it's indestructible.

Avoid torquey setups. Yes, the 2.3L stroker is very nice to drive, but when combined with a big turbo, that torque is your transmission's worst enemy. A responsive 2.0L can be just as pleasant.

The bolding is something I added, but as Canadian said, torque is a transmission's enemy. Today, I saw the announcement about the new Ford electric Mustang, with 1,000 ft lbs. of torque, and a 6-speed manual transmission. I wonder how they have designed theirs and what we can learn from it that will help improve ours?

https://www.foxnews.com/auto/electric-ford-mustang-lithium
 
The only gearset I installed of Matthias' lasted a very short time and it stripped 4th completely. I have it at the shop and would have to take pictures.
 
I'm with you.. Stripped 4th on my 14 year old Shep stage 3 last year and while I'm happy it lasted that long with plenty of abuse I'm saddened to think the car almost needs to "retire" and become a gently driven show/meet car to keep it a 5-speed or spend big money on a dogbox. I sometimes hang my hat on what's happening to other 90's iconic cars and hope the DSM will follow suit and have something of a revival. Objectively, it is a timeless style that has aged super well.
 
The popularity of the older Evos has been climbing. Unfortunately mostly for the 5s and 6s it seems but if enough people start scooping up 1-3s maybe we have a chance. At this point I believe additive manufacturing will be what saves our cars. It is being adopted for out of production models by other makes. Porsche being the most prominent I can think of. I doubt Mitsu will ever dive into that but if an aftermarket company can that would be excellent.
 
I hope your right because I've had mine for 16 years and I'm not selling ever.. I'd like to not worry every time I stomped it tho that if something breaks I'm in trouble.

This may sound really stupid so excuse my ignorance... Is their any reality in using clusters/internals from another awd platform that has more parts availability and just machining custom housings to make it all work and bolt up? I would think with that technology being proven and the availability of five axis machines something like that would be more plausible than getting all the little bits and pieces made for our transmission housing in the aftermarket. Again typing it out It sounds really stupid but I wish there was a way to flop Evo 8 clusters and internals and just custom machine a whole center and back section of a case to bolt up to our stuff. Custom drive shafts and axles would be easy enough...
 
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I still can't believe that someone hasn't built stronger gears for DSMs. The market is still there.
Is it though? DSM people like to pay nothing for parts. Nobody is going to make a gearset for the price DSMers want to pay. Buy a PPG call it a night, cause if you don't support PPG even they will stop making parts.
BTW: straight cut gears ain't that loud, I have PPG in my car.
 
Is it though? DSM people like to pay nothing for parts. Nobody is going to make a gearset for the price DSMers want to pay. Buy a PPG call it a night, cause if you don't support PPG even they will stop making parts.
BTW: straight cut gears ain't that loud, I have PPG in my car.

I would if you could fit a proper center diff in them. Spools don’t work for what I do with my car.
 
I would if you could fit a proper center diff in them. Spools don’t work for what I do with my car.

The PPG comes with a spool but the TMZ 4-spider swap-over for it reads like this:
"Convert PPG Center Differential to 4-Spider with Our Forged Cross Shaft, and New Pinion Gearset and Modified PPG Diff Housing (Add $900.00)"
 
The PPG comes with a spool but the TMZ 4-spider swap-over for it reads like this:
"Convert PPG Center Differential to 4-Spider with Our Forged Cross Shaft, and New Pinion Gearset and Modified PPG Diff Housing (Add $900.00)"
yeah, you're not breaking a PPG spool. I brought the PPG with the 4 spider cause I didn't want to wait and the TMZ 4-spider shaft is no joke.
 
I made a post above a few months back. I totally believe 3d printing will save older cars. Ours included. 3d printing shines with low volume work. The storage space is simply some hard drive capacity. No inventory or shelf space needed for parts ordered once every 6 months. Parts don't go obsolete they get made to order. No tooling spin up. No assembly lines to prepare.

It does require someone to scan or model the OE part but that's about the extent of the up front effort.
 
So really when they figure out the metallurgy aspects of something like a gear it's only a matter of time before it's a reality to the small job market!
 
So really when they figure out the metallurgy aspects of something like a gear it's only a matter of time before it's a reality to the small job market!

I think they are already close if not there. My company is beginning to use 3d manufacturing for aerospace components made of inconel. The cost is likely prohibitive still for people like us but the tech is there. Just need to wait for the costs to come down. Only a matter of time. One guy models up our transmission and when you order a trans from one of the trans builders you'll get sent a brand new transmission with all new, and hopefully stronger, parts. That's the dream anyway.
 
I've already looked into this. xometry.com does 3d printing. I asked them for a quote and they stated I need to get the scanned first into a CAD file. they quoted me $700 per part, so for 3rd and 4th gear with hub and slider it was $2,800. not counting the price per gear to make. which would more than likely 500 a piece, if not more.
 
I've already looked into this. xometry.com does 3d printing. I asked them for a quote and they stated I need to get the scanned first into a CAD file. they quoted me $700 per part, so for 3rd and 4th gear with hub and slider it was $2,800. not counting the price per gear to make. which would more than likely 500 a piece, if not more.

The cost isn't there yet for sure. But the $2800 is one time only. Once you have the stp file (or your preferred 3d modeling format) you have it forever and can print replacement parts at will. The upfront cost of modeling will likely remain the same. The cost per item will come down. Plastic 3D printers were sci-fi 15 years ago. Now I can go to Microcenter and buy one for a couple hundred bucks. It will take some more time but it will get there.
 
It's just a waiting game at this point. Good stuff thanks fellas! I imagine the metal printing will get pushed pretty hard to develop because of the mass manufacturing capabilities it could have and the fact that cost savings in materials and development alone could be astronomical.
 
Ive been running a PAR set for a few years and a friend has had one about 5 years now. I run it in Evo3 synchro configuration and he uses it with the single piece 3/4 synchro and large diameter hub, but its an Evo hub which are forged rather than cast. Im 600hp and about 500ft.lb, he is probably a smidge more, both doing hillclimbing and tarmac sprint events.

Both sets have been trouble free, the noise is a nice noise, in the race car with zero sound proofing its audible but not silly loud. It would be fine in a car with sound protection still fitted.

I believe you can get Haysam to make the set with a 3-piece synchro on 1st gear, I know someone who did do this with a PAR set, but its not a standard offering. The parts were all really nicely made and fitted well with the exception of the TMZ crosspin into the centre diff. when he machines the centre diff housing he makes the wall slightly thicker and you have to grind the crosspin ends to make it fit, apparently an intentional design otherwise the diff housing gets pretty thin there. Its not much that you have to take off.

Definetely would recommend to any DSMer who is making reasonable power or wants to in the future, to go down this track, or go PPG with dog engagement if you don't mind the extra maintenance of a dog set over a synchro set. Set the transmission up once and do it overkill as much as you can, saves hunting down rare, expensive and still weak parts time after time.
 
It's been like 3 more years, how close are we to getting 3d printed transmission parts that are strong? We must be able to do this now, yes?
 
Heads up that the double synchro for the PAR 3rd/4th (which is also used on the Evo 2/3 3rd/4th gearset) is obsolete. The 3/4 hub and slider you would have to purchase off Ebay from this vendor - https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_dk...=reasonablypricedparts&_oac=1&_nkw=mitsubishi

You would use your OEM 1st and 4th and 5th needle bearing sleeves, with a 2-hole 3/4 shift rail. If you are running a 90-91.5 trans with the early style shift selector assembly, then you have to use your factory rails (which are obsolete) that match the early style shift selector tab; if you are using a 1991.6-1999 style transmission, then you need to use either an Evo 2/3 3rd/4th shift rail that is clearanced to fit (obsolete), or a 1991.6-1992.5 style 3rd/4th shift rail for the 2-hole shift forks (also obsolete). The 1992.6-1999 3rd/4th shift rail does not have the correct shift fork roll pin location, so you would either have to custom fixture and drill it to accomodate or find the correct shift rail. Unfortunately, ALL shift rails are obsolete now.

The 1/2 hub and slider is still around currently through Mitsubishi; MD749414. The 1/2 and 3/4 and 5/R hub and slider springs and keys are still available. You would need the revised 3/4 hub and slider keys - 3x MD748663 and then 2x MD742441 springs. The 1/2 hub and slider uses 3x MD742775 keys and depending on which 1st/2nd synchros you are using (the thick 1st single synchro cannot clear two springs on that side of the hub and slider; but if you are using a shallow 1st synchro or a double synchro on that side, you can run two springs on both sides). The springs are MD742445, in stock form it would take 1 per side. If you are running double synchros on both 1st and 2nd, then you can run 2x springs per side.

As well, if you are doing a 4-spider center diff, then special machinework is needed to fit a 4 spider cross shaft in it at the proper setup height, along with machining a GOOD center diff cover (obsolete), and then use good shape upper and lower pinion gears (obsolete), and then 4 spider gears (OEM are obsolete, but NEAT gearbox has made some and is selling them - http://neatgearboxes.com.au/). As well, if I recall, PAR does their center diff housing with a 90 style lower pinion oiling washer, which is the same as the PPG center diff style; of course, those shims are all obsolete too. I was using MR954819 front diff pinion gear oiling washer shim set to fit the lower pinion gear in the center diff (also obsolete now). The upper, I would have the cover machined to accomodate a Torrington bearing (McMaster-Carr - https://www.mcmaster.com/5909K38/) with two 0.032" thrust washers (McMaster-Carr - https://www.mcmaster.com/5909K52/), and set it up for around 0.008-0.010" endplay. If I recall, is in the 0.104-0.110" cut range. I had a bunch of covers cut down at different increments so that I could adjust the cover to fit the gearset setup variation. The spider gear washers are in limited quantities, you can only fit a single washer per spider gear in the PPG and PAR housing, so you would need 4x MD737658 spider washers. I do still sell my heat treated chromoly steel 4-spider cross shaft, but currently only have a handful of them left. It needs a bit taken off the posts to have flats for it to sit at the correct height in the housing, but won't be an issue for strength, it is in the seating area, not the friction area of the spider gears.

You will also need to likely adjust the shift rail detent ranges, and clearance the shift selector cage to extend the throw of the selector tab if you are not getting complete engagement during setup. Typically though, it is much more of an issue when working on the dogbox version of the gearset.
 
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