Blown tranny? Blown clutch? Help!

[nothingfiction]

New thread for unanswered questions.

For starters, the car is a 2G NON turbo! Don't need everyone's input about clutches and clutch parts as the 420A has a modular clutch, therefor talking about your halfshafts and flywheels and pressure plates or pilot bearings does not apply.

Symptoms: Car starts fine, idle's surprisingly better than usual.
I can "shift" between each gear without any issue.
When put into Reverse, i hear a slight clink as to sound as if engaged, all other gears are silent.
the Car will NOT move, in any gear at all. As if it is stuck in nuetral.
Visual inspection shows no leak of transmission fluid.
Visual inspection shows the shift links are still connected, disassembly will come shortly to verify if they have broke somewhere other than the connectors.

Now, i am sure people will say the transmission is fried. that was my first thought too. Then came here and started reading. The more i read it sounds like the clutch is fried. Very well could be true. There is no grinding between gears. No grinding at all, just a very slight tink sound when put into reverse. Some people have posted about how it could just be the shift links (as i have said, i am going to check that shortly). In one thread somewhere i read someone say something about checking a transmission fuse... Does this exist? Did i read that wrong? Or where is that located?

I am a noob to transmissions as i have not had to work on mine before now. Everything i have gathered is from a days worth of looking. And from some pictures i see exploded diaphrams of clutches and single view shots of clutches. Small Angel Food cake pan looking thing. So that goes into the transmission, but i thought the transmission was like a 10speed bike with gears and stuff? Totally confusing me.

There is no burning smell that i notice.
Read someone mention check my cv axel, ummm... My what, where? (4g63 thread)
Read it could be a clutch disk... which brings me to clutch again, and not transmission.
I am so lost... ready for the bashing. Give it to me...

(if possible please provide pictures, not the explosion cartoon diagrams that my brains percieves like ink blots in a psych ward)

 

[97gsxIA]

I've heard this can happen when the input shaft breaks off clean. I'm not a modular clutch expert, but it's definitely something you can check into since its not grabbing any of the gears. Which points me to the tranny and not the clutch. but like you said theres no grinding and I've only read that unsprung clutch disks or a broken input shaft could be to blame

 

[Shake_Zulla]

Just going off the symptoms it could be many things. Where there any warning signs? Slipping clutch, slipping out of gears, problems with shifting into one or more gears? How it stopped working will probably tell more than the symptoms at this point. If it was fine one day and gone the next I would guess something came loose in your shifting linkage. Trans fuse probably is on an auto as the linkage between your shifter and the trans will not have a fuse.

 

[nothingfiction]

Everything was fine. Never had it pop out of gear. Was driving home from work. Made it about all the way there (roughly three or four blocks away). Some asshat either didnt see me (not sure how a red car goes unseen) or something but they stepped on the gas and swerved into my lane right on my ass. (40 mph road) So i stepped on the gas (now going about 50) so they dont plow into me and i swerve into the other lane with my foot on the clutch, coasting into my turn. Pulled off onto my road, hit the stop sign and everything was fine. Put it into first and pulled away from the stop sign, went to put it into second and no power, nothing. Thinking it was just me i put it in nuetral, than went back to second, nothing again. First, nothing. The car made it about half way of the intersection before coming to a stop. Had to have help pushing it a block to get in my driveway.

Only issue i can recall having was in third gear at high rpm's sometimes it wouldnt go in. but thats in high rpms. (4.5k and higher)

Looking up and down the street where this all happened there is no leak of any fluids shown (looked last night and again this morning). The only debris on the road what so ever... looked like this...

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

Not sure if it came from my car or what. But you can tell that it is an automobile coupler of some sort. But the picture is the general shape/style of what debris was to be found.

 

[Anubis_4_99]

Everything was fine. Never had it pop out of gear. Was driving home from work. Made it about all the way there (roughly three or four blocks away). Some asshat either didnt see me (not sure how a red car goes unseen) or something but they stepped on the gas and swerved into my lane right on my ass. (40 mph road) So i stepped on the gas (now going about 50) so they dont plow into me and i swerve into the other lane with my foot on the clutch, coasting into my turn. Pulled off onto my road, hit the stop sign and everything was fine. Put it into first and pulled away from the stop sign, went to put it into second and no power, nothing. Thinking it was just me i put it in nuetral, than went back to second, nothing again. First, nothing. The car made it about half way of the intersection before coming to a stop. Had to have help pushing it a block to get in my driveway.

Only issue i can recall having was in third gear at high rpm's sometimes it wouldnt go in. but thats in high rpms. (4.5k and higher)

Looking up and down the street where this all happened there is no leak of any fluids shown (looked last night and again this morning). The only debris on the road what so ever... looked like this...

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

Not sure if it came from my car or what. But you can tell that it is an automobile coupler of some sort. But the picture is the general shape/style of what debris was to be found.

I really hope thats a joke.

Also regardless of the clutch being modular or not, flywheel, PP and friction disk still play a role in the operation of the transmission.

 

[nothingfiction]

I really hope thats a joke.

Also regardless of the clutch being modular or not, flywheel, PP and friction disk still play a role in the operation of the transmission.

No, not a joke

Actual picture of it...

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

 

[Anubis_4_99]

No, not a joke

Actual picture of it...

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

I was mainly asking about the KONG toy. If it has KONG on it then its a dog toy.

If not it could be a CV shaft boot. May want to crawl under and see if either of your axles are missing one.

 

[nothingfiction]

Pictures...

START at the gas station...

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

(Just so you can visualize the area, scenario even better.)

And more pics of said object road debris...

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

Doesn't that look like the dog's chew toy thing?

 

[Sebba]

I suspect the clutch disc failed in some way. The fact that you said it was easier to start, heard one click, and can get into gear freely leads me to think nothing is going on at the input shaft.

I'm guessing the disc separated.

 

[Anubis_4_99]

Pictures...

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

Doesn't that look like the dog's chew toy thing?

It is definitely not a KONG toy, but it is also not a CV shaft boot, nor anything suspension related that i can think of.

 

[Sebba]

That piece of debris doesn't look like anything from a DSM.

 

[nothingfiction]

I suspect the clutch disc failed in some way. The fact that you said it was easier to start, heard one click, and can get into gear freely leads me to think nothing is going on at the input shaft.

I'm guessing the disc separated.

The car starts and idles better than usual (I am guessing because there is no load on it?) not sure if that is possible. The gears move freely as they should (not to be confused with "too freely" as if I didn't have to press the clutch pedal. Yes I still do)

Finally got the visual inspection of the gear links. The one closest to the engine has movement. So I know it is still connected. The one burried a little deeper (towards the one more to the drivers side fender, does move as well. However it does not move as much as the other. Is that normal?

As for the click, I only hear that when going into reverse, not the other gears at all.

UPDATE:
So I was told to try to see if I can shift thru all 6 gears with the car running. Done. Still work.
Then I was told to try the same thing without stepping on the clutch pedal. Odd, haven't thought of that. Just not natural to me. So, I tried that too. Same result. Didn't matter if I stepped on the peddle or not. Also note, the engine never died, stalled or made any change at all during both tests.

 

[Sebba]

Time to pull the transmission and find out!

 

[Anubis_4_99]

UPDATE:
So I was told to try to see if I can shift thru all 6 gears with the car running. Done. Still work.
Then I was told to try the same thing without stepping on the clutch pedal. Odd, haven't thought of that. Just not natural to me. So, I tried that too. Same result. Didn't matter if I stepped on the peddle or not. Also note, the engine never died, stalled or made any change at all during both tests.

Has happened to me before when a pressure plate exploded. Could also be a random throw out bearing failure, etc. Your pretty much at the point where you need to pull the transmission and see whats going on.

 

[nothingfiction]

Started digging around and I found this wedged between the tranny and the gear links. Could this be the cause of all my issue? or do I need to continue digging deeper? It was lodged between the second gear link (toward the drivers side fender)... The one that didn't have a lot of movement that I was questioning earlier.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

 

[bullettdsm]

Lol, you're finding all kinds of useless crap Yeah, that piece could cause some problems, but not the ones you are speaking of.

If I understand properly, you have the car running, you don't push the clutch in, you shift gears (and it feels relatively "normal"). If that's the case, you have a disconnect between the engine and the tranny. Now what connects the engine rpm's to the transmision? The input shaft. Now how is that engine to input shaft connection "governed"? By the clutch.

The input shaft itself goes into a set of splines that are attached to the clutch disc. When you step on your clutch pedal, the pressure plate releases that disc from its connection to the engine and allows you to shift freely.

So (I've tried to paint that picture as simple as I could), since you can smoothly shift WITHOUT pushing in the clutch, you have a disconnect between the input shaft and the engine. This disconnect could be a broken input shaft (they have been known to break just outside of the bellhousing) or the ring that the input shaft goes into (that is integral to the clutch disc) is broken off the disc.

I suspect broken input shaft because those are generally quiet when they break while a busted ring (where the splines go in) tends to make noise and catches once in a while. But we are just guessing until you pull the tranny and look.

And just thinking about it, I wonder if that reverse tick noise is that piece of metal you pulled off the top of the tranny

MB

 

[Anubis_4_99]

You seem to have a substantial amount of oil build up in that area. Might want to check into that. Mine doesn't look nearly that bad.

And bullet put into words what i couldn't, so hopefully it will help you out, grab a manual, or do some reading in the VFAQ and rip into her.

 

[nothingfiction]

Ok... Just doing some reading for homework to see what project I am taking on here...

Now correct me if I am wrong, but pictures help a lot...

Tranny bolted onto engine looks like this...

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

Tranny seperated looks like this...

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

inside that empty cavity is supposed to be the clutch? that looks like this?...

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

the Transmission case can actually be split even further to show something like this...

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

How freaking far do I need to dig into this thing? .
the input shaft has been mentioned, can't seem to find anything online at the moment to buy a new one, is that even available? Or do I have to regrind or something?

 

[Sebba]

Installing an input shaft is complicated, and if it's broken you'd be far better off replacing the trans.

Once you get it off, you should see the problem quite clearly.

 

[96 420a-t]

If you can pit it in gear without the clutch but engine running? Have you checked your shift cables? If it goes in gear like that i would think the problem is most likely after the trans or the clutch its self.

 

[brownfinger]

Like I told you in the PM, just pull the trans. At least you need a new clutch. At most, you need a used trans. No need to dig into the trans case. If you want to be a nut-job, you can replace your trans with a used one, and have your old one rebuilt. Maybe you're lucky and it's just a horribly exploded clutch, either way, when you pull the trans, you may as well install a fresh clutch. Beyond that, splitting the trans open is work for an experienced specialist: It's cheaper and easier to buy multiple used transmissions and keep swapping them in until you find a good one. I just spent about $600 US to have a trans 1/2 rebuilt by a trained specialist. He replaced all the bearings and seals, but none of the synchros. You can buy 2 or 3 used transmissions for that much money.

Good luck Becca. Chances are you have a broken something in your tranny, but it isn't worth pulling the trans without having a new clutch kit handy. Compared to the cost and time of a rebuilt trans, it isn't worth doing this without having a used trans ready. What you do is: Pull the trans, replace your clutch, put in the used new trans, have your old trans rebuilt, and put the rebuilt trans in later, when you have time and money for new axles, or something. Worst outcome is that you install a used trans that is worn-out and only has a few thousand miles left in it. Either way, you have a running car.

PM your friends, and get through this. It isn't that big. Even in the winter in the great white north.

You can do it!