Bad news from the refineries.....

[01QuadDak]

A 10 percent blend of ethanol will soon be going into mass supply from all refineries in the US to take the place of the previous MTBE blended gasoline. What does this new blend mean to us?
-At least a 10 cent per gallon price increase once it goes into gasoline, due to a "shortage" of ethanol, which will not be until may.
-AT LEAST 2MPG less economy due to the ethanol's lower BTU content.
-Older cars fuel systems stand a very good chance of damage from the ethanol, from the oxidation of aluminum parts, and damage to rubber seals, and lines.
The current gas increse trend is due to many refineries having to add another additive section for the ethanol, and for ethanol storage.
Save you gas receipts in the coming months, as well as maintenance records, if enough maintenance records show a swing toward fuel related problems, starting at the time period that the ethanol blend was introduced, there may be some legal recourse that can be taken.
I heard about this from a top official at a loading station near my home, backed up by a few chemists.
If you are running nitrous in your vehicle on pump swill, you WILL need to richen the fuel jet, to compensate for the BTU loss. Same goes for turbo applications on pump, you are going to need to adjust fuel flow, this part is especially important to guys that have imports with older computers, or standalone, as some of these systems will get wigged out by the additional fuel flow needed.
I don't see how this is going to help our environment much, because although one particular pollutant has been removed, we are now pumping more pounds of pollutants per mile that before.
MTBE was bad(real bad), but there has to be another way of solving this particular additive problem.

 

[WMD]

ppphhht, gas was $6 a liter in England. 4 liters in a gallon, so $24 a gallon, american gas prices have a ways to go before we get to that point.

 

[01QuadDak]

Since when do we have to base out policies around other countries? I don't need to emulate any countries styles, methods or way's of thinking. This is america, not some snot nosed country who feels that only the wealthy should drive.

 

[mn95TSi]

damn right, this is america and we can do whatever we want...

 

[WMD]

Since when do we have to emulate the british? I don't need to emulate any countries styles, methods or way's of thinking. This is america, not some snot nosed country who feels that only the wealthy should drive.

thats the most ignorant thing ive hear/read today. We shouldn't complane about a ten cent rise on gas price since it is not that bad. What about germany or japan, or any european country, are they snooty too? Because they have high gas prices too. We drive gas sucking monsters here in the us and we travle far more than we need to. And yes the "Amereican way of life" is based on cheap fuel, so thats why it seems do bad.

BTW my post said nothing about emulating the brittish, it was mearly stating other countries have astronimical gas prices. You must be confused.

 

[01QuadDak]

My comment was neither ignorant, it the truth, i do not need to emulate any foreign country to feel good about myself, and that carries over to their fiscal policies.
Well, most ### and euro gas is also a much higher octane, which explains a big part of the price increase.
The problem with US gas is that is is low octane swill, with different blends for different areas, which contributes to a part of the high prices. The gas prices do not need to be this high, which is what frustrates me, its because of greed.
I am also pissed that because of the ethanol i am going to have to pay MUCH closer attention to the fuel system, and may have to re-cal the computer on my other vehicle.(already been custom flashed)
I need to travel 25 miles a day to get to work, because there are no companies around me that will pay me what i want, and are as stable as my current job. So is that traveling too far?
How can you be into cars and not get pissed when the government makes a change that has a good chance of damaging your vehicle, not to mention making you spend MORE money on gas, PLUS it still polutes more?

 

[GSEclipse06]

thats the most ignorant thing ive hear/read today. We shouldn't complane about a ten cent rise on gas price since it is not that bad. What about germany or japan, or any european country, are they snooty too? Because they have high gas prices too. We drive gas sucking monsters here in the us and we travle far more than we need to. And yes the "Amereican way of life" is based on cheap fuel, so thats why it seems do bad.

BTW my post said nothing about emulating the brittish, it was mearly stating other countries have astronimical gas prices. You must be confused.

bullshit. maybe not bad for you but there are plenty of people-both DSMers and not-on a tight enough budget as it is, and higher gas prices are gonna f.uck them over. maybe your pocket book is thick enough, but not everyone is that lucky. i know that gas prices are really making me reconsider a turbo vehicle. im looking at $300-$400 a month when i get my next car for car payment, insurance, and phone bill, and thats about one paycheck, and with how much i drive, premium gas is probably going to run me the other one. as far as i'm concerned, if there's a shortage of ethanol and its going to jack prices up, then f*ck it, it isn't worth it. i dont care that much about the environment and i don't enjoy that kind of shit getting forced on me. i'd rather have a worse environment and more money in my pocket. sorry if you don't agree, but thats just how i feel. gas here is $2.79/gallon for premiuim and i won't be able to afford much more than that.

 

[WMD]

My comment was neither ignorant, it the truth, i do not need to emulate any foreign country to feel good about myself, and that carries over to their fiscal policies.
Well, most ### and euro gas is also a much higher octane, which explains a big part of the price increase.
The problem with US gas is that is is low octane swill, with different blends for different areas, which contributes to a part of the high prices. The gas prices do not need to be this high, which is what frustrates me, its because of greed.

calm down, i said nothing about emulating to feel good. And you must have that "Oh, we americans do what ever we want" attitude. Which is ignorant.

The gas in europe wasnt special octane, it just like our gas.
Oh and im not even going in to the shady actions of our own bush and the big 'ol texas oil companies. Its not 1965 any more, gas will cost more than 25 cents a gallon.

and maybe this is news for you but, when the fuel criesis happend in the early70's, factoring in inflation, the gas prices where well over $3 a gallon. So this has happend in the past.

 

[WMD]

bullshit. maybe not bad for you but there are plenty of people-both DSMers and not-on a tight enough budget as it is, and higher gas prices are gonna f.uck them over. maybe your pocket book is thick enough, but not everyone is that lucky. i know that gas prices are really making me reconsider a turbo vehicle. im looking at $300-$400 a month when i get my next car for car payment, insurance, and phone bill, and thats about one paycheck, and with how much i drive, premium gas is probably going to run me the other one. as far as i'm concerned, if there's a shortage of ethanol and its going to jack prices up, then f*ck it, it isn't worth it. i dont care that much about the environment and i don't enjoy that kind of shit getting forced on me. i'd rather have a worse environment and more money in my pocket. sorry if you don't agree, but thats just how i feel. gas here is $2.79/gallon for premiuim and i won't be able to afford much more than that.

Actually im a college student who makes 400 a month. But I can still afford gas. How?Why? Because I don't waste it. But i still go where I want, and still have fun. And I dont buy things which I cant afford.

Both of you need to come to terms with reality. There are almost 7 billion people on this planet. We use oil for our trasportation, fertlizer, we generate electricty with it. Some is going to break. We only have so much oil on this planet and that is why it costs more. Supply and demand couppled with limited supply.

 

[01QuadDak]

Not tyring to get pissy, but i don't have the "do what we feel like attitude", i get peeved when someone tells me that something is good for me when i know it isn't.
Trust me, i want nothing more than a happy and clean world, but the reality is that ain't happening anytime soon due to current attitudes in the world.
I used to work in a power plants so i know all about alternative methods of generating power other than oil, and the biggest thing is people's negative attitudes toward them.
Trash to steam for power- The main byproduct is ash, sulfur gasses, and not much else. People pay to have their trash shipped to them, pay for the power it generates, and since the resulting ash is chemically neutral after the treatment process, it is sold as a fill product for cement, landfils, and building materials, people think that they smell terrible, so they don't want them. In reality they don't stink much, don't pollute much, and take care of trash and power problems.
Nuclear- Clean, quiet, thermally clean and safe. Not much else to say. Todays nuclear industry is tightly regulated, and very secure. Nobody wants a nuke around b/c they are afraid of them from TMI and chernobyl, which were caused by human error, and mistrust of their equip.
Coal- coal is cheap, and the new plants have amazing emissions controlling equip. Main byproduct is soot, and dirt.
Trust me, i am fully in terms with reality, i don't like it when i am told to accept something b/c some other country has it worse. I am not trying to start a pissing contest. I jsut wanted to let everyone know about a potential problem with performance in the near future. If i can't enjoy my hobby because someone thinks that they have an easy solution to a hard problem, then i feel that something is wrong.

 

[mitsuclipsegsx]

In ny we already have 10% ethanol.

 

[AllWheelGrip]

Yeah, its been 10% ethanol by me for awile.

 

[Synapses]

Same as me, there has always been %10 Ethenol in our gas for along time.

 

[Wpgdsm]

Where I live once the weather gets cold all gas stations switch to winter fuel and you have no choice in the matter of wether or not it blended because it all is.

 

[drivemusicnow]

WOAAHHHHHH


HOly Misinformation Batman!

First, many areas have had 10 ethanol for a while. It's made from corn. So while it really doesn't do anything for you (it does have a lower energy content per gallon than gasoline) It does support the farming industry (I'm from IL... we grow a lot of corn here)

Second... 4 Liters is not a gallon... 4 Quarts is a gallon. 3.78 liters per gallon. (small, but definite difference)

Gasoline in europe is approximately equivelant to our gasoline. They just use a different method of measuring octane. We use (Research + Motor) divided by two just incase you were wondering. wikipedia it if you're interested.

In europe they are not paying 24 Dollars a gallon... they are paying a little over 6 US$ per gallon. about 90 British Pence a liter. And England is the most expensive country in Europe because they add tax thats almost 85% of the cost of gas.. so in fact, it's just slightly higher priced than here, but with enough tax to make a rich man cry.

 

[twack]

around here its crowded with kwik trips and they like to be known as the clean gas station so they have the ethanol blend, now e85 is every where, last year it was only at one

 

[DSMJim]

My comment was neither ignorant, it the truth, i do not need to emulate any foreign country to feel good about myself, and that carries over to their fiscal policies.
Well, most ### and euro gas is also a much higher octane, which explains a big part of the price increase.

BTW your comparing the RON method against the RM/2 method of calculating Octane. What you see over there as 98 octane is 91 octane here, its the different calculation method they use thats makes the number look higher. They don't do it to make the number higher, just that their government uses a different method to calculate it and thats what they get.

Were paying 1.00 / liter here in Canada. Thats 4 bux a gallon or so with exchange, and we right friggin next door. I can be in New York in an hour from my house and gas prices are almost half...

 

[Thomas91169]

Since when do we have to base out policies around other countries? I don't need to emulate any countries styles, methods or way's of thinking. This is america, not some snot nosed country who feels that only the wealthy should drive.

AMEN BROTHA!!!!!!

just cause europe pays out the ass, doesnt mean we should. they dont use as much as we do, so naturally us using more it should be cheaper.

if people werent so scared to stand up and fight for what they belive in, we wouldnt have alot of problems we have today. were america, if we want cheaper gas, well get cheaper gas dammit, or someones gonna get bombed, and were gonna take the oil anyway.

 

[drivemusicnow]

AMEN BROTHA!!!!!!

just cause europe pays out the ass, doesnt mean we should. they dont use as much as we do, so naturally us using more it should be cheaper.

if people werent so scared to stand up and fight for what they belive in, we wouldnt have alot of problems we have today. were america, if we want cheaper gas, well get cheaper gas dammit, or someones gonna get bombed, and were gonna take the oil anyway.

and ^that is why the United states will be "the most powerful country on the planet" for only about 15 more years...

your stupidity amazes me.

 

[Dark_Horse]

AMEN BROTHA!!!!!!

just cause europe pays out the ass, doesnt mean we should. they dont use as much as we do, so naturally us using more it should be cheaper.

if people werent so scared to stand up and fight for what they belive in, we wouldnt have alot of problems we have today. were america, if we want cheaper gas, well get cheaper gas dammit, or someones gonna get bombed, and were gonna take the oil anyway.

Gas is more expensive in Europe because they tax the cr@p out of it.

So if we all stand up and fight for cheaper gas prices, we'll get them?!?! Right...

I'm anxiously awaiting the next moronic "lets all stop buying gas from (insert gas company here) and force them to lower the prices". Or the even better, "don't buy gas on (insert day here) and force the prices lower".

It's simple supply and demand.

Gas is expensive because of lack of refining capacity. The refineries we have are running full blast to supply the gasoline the US demands...Do you think it's cheap to run refineries at 100% of capacity? Eventually you reach the point of diminishing returns where every percentage over maximum efficiency raises the cost of doing business.

 

[joshohatesuall]

so what, you want to boycott the gas stations? rofl rofl rofl

here's the simple fact: the fuel companies will do whatever the #### they want to do, and you're going to pay it. whether its $2 a gallon or $5 a gallon, Americans (oh we are so great blah blah blah honestly shut the #### up) are going to pay it. Now they are going to bi*** and piss and moan the whole time the more expensive it gets, but they will still pay and still consume. It's called being a ####ing pawn. You're one too for crying over this bullshit even though you're going to pay regardless, and then you get all asshurt when someone points out how much of a stupid hypocrite you are being.

 

[huafist]

AMEN BROTHA!!!!!!

just cause europe pays out the ass, doesnt mean we should. they dont use as much as we do, so naturally us using more it should be cheaper.

if people werent so scared to stand up and fight for what they belive in, we wouldnt have alot of problems we have today. were america, if we want cheaper gas, well get cheaper gas dammit, or someones gonna get bombed, and were gonna take the oil anyway.

He's right in the argument that just because europe pays more doesn't mean we should - that was a stupid comparison from the get-go.
I'm hoping his last statement is more of a joke than anything else.

and ^that is why the United states will be "the most powerful country on the planet" for only about 15 more years...

your stupidity amazes me.

This statement is as retarded as the bombing statement. I didn't realize you were clairvoyant?

It's simple supply and demand.

Gas is expensive because of lack of refining capacity. The refineries we have are running full blast to supply the gasoline the US demands...Do you think it's cheap to run refineries at 100% of capacity? Eventually you reach the point of diminishing returns where every percentage over maximum efficiency raises the cost of doing business.

This is correct - to a degree it IS supply and demand. And yes, our refining capability is woefully inadequate, but environmentalist wackos won't let us build more.
I don't buy the "point of diminishing returns" argument, however. If that were the case, then why did all major oil companies report record-setting profits last quarter?

 

[joshohatesuall]

He's right in the argument that just because europe pays more doesn't mean we should - that was a stupid comparison from the get-go.
I'm hoping his last statement is more of a joke than anything else.

you, as well as basically everyone else, are missing the point. he's saying europe pays a lot more than we do, so quit whining so much over a 10c increase in price.

This statement is as retarded as the bombing statement. I didn't realize you were clairvoyant?

don't really have an opinion on this so, yes, he is clairvoyant. he's the next nostradamus

This is correct - to a degree it IS supply and demand. And yes, our refining capability is woefully inadequate, but environmentalist wackos won't let us build more.
I don't buy the "point of diminishing returns" argument, however. If that were the case, then why did all major oil companies report record-setting profits last quarter?

It wasn't the case, the major oil companies are just ripping us off. And they're making a killing doing it. But hey, if you were one of them, wouldn't you be doing the same?

 

[huafist]

you, as well as basically everyone else, are missing the point. he's saying europe pays a lot more than we do, so quit whining so much over a 10c increase in price.

I'm not missing the point. The social and economic structure of europe is completely different than what we have here in the states. Get over comparing the two.

don't really have an opinion on this so, yes, he is clairvoyant. he's the next nostradamus

Must be

It wasn't the case, the major oil companies are just ripping us off. And they're making a killing doing it. But hey, if you were one of them, wouldn't you be doing the same?

I really can't say. I don't think any of us can because we can't fathom the amount of money going through these companies. To a degree, it's capitalism working. They're charging what the market will bear. It's not fair to a lot of people, but if they were allowed to build more refineries so we could process more oil, supply would increase and prices would come down.

 

[Dark_Horse]

I don't buy the "point of diminishing returns" argument, however. If that were the case, then why did all major oil companies report record-setting profits last quarter?

In any business class/economics class you take, they usually talk about the law of diminishing returns.

Basic law of diminishing returns - there is an optimal production level for businesses that allows the per unit cost to be the lowest it can be. Once this production level is surpassed, the cost per unit rises quickly.

If refineries are running at 100% of capicity, they have obviously exceeded their optimal production level.

Oil companies will make profits no matter if they're running at 1% of capacity or 100% of capacity. They just jack up the prices to compensate for higher production costs.