Lifter Tick [merged] Revised lifters 3rd Gen Generation 3g

[95talontsi]

I am fixing my valve tix by taking out the lifters or the auto valve lash adjusters. I have the valves cover off, the engine is at top dead center and I am on 3# cylinder. I got instructions off the net, now with either a tool or a standard screw driver press down on the valve and remove the rocker arm then remove the lifter. Which then I will clean out.
The question is where do I push down, The valve has the spring around is and the metal cap on top of that( forget the name of that) where do I push down with out damaging anything, I will probably have to push a bit so I do not want to damage anything. please help?

 

[tsi1991awd]

This is 7 months old man....I have long since fixed the problem with revised 3g lifters. Got them for $70 shipped brand new. There are cheaper places

 

[the_mork]

Has anyone used Johnson HLAs? I found an ebay ad that was selling Topline/Johnson 3g HLAs but later in the ad they state that they are selling Johnson lifters so I wondered if this was a different brand with topline just thrown in for marketing or if they are the same, or if it even matters with this sort of part. I've been seeing them for <$70 so I'm hoping that I can save myself some money and use them.

 

[steve]

Johnson = Topline in this case. People have had poor luck with other Topline products but I'm not aware of anybody reporting issues with the lash adjusters. Perhaps that's because they stay away from them or because they work fine. Don't know.

I've used the Part Dinosaur in the past and willing to pay a few bucks extra for the service and security of knowing I'm getting a quality part.

 

[Nofear20]

First of all I have had multiple verify this is lifter tick, but please check this vid just so I can be 100% sure this isn't a bigger problem. Sometimes it seems to be even louder than this, like a clunking noise. But anyways here is the vid:
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/_IZp22UQpBw&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/_IZp22UQpBw&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Ok so if this is infact lifter tick, which I think it is... my car has the 3g lifters in it which have only been used for about a year and 4 months. I was under the impression that these lifters would have got rid of the tick for good, but that doesn't seem to be the case. They are infact ticking/clunking so bad, that my knock sensor is detecting it and pulling timing.

I was told from a reputable source there are newer 3g lifters that have a 3mm oil valve on them, and that my older 3g lifters probably aren't as big. Question is, is this true? If so should I clean my lifters or just order yet another set of lifters. I ordered the topline revised lifters off ebay about a year and a half ago.. These are the other ones I am speaking of.. Lash Ajusters Lifters 16V DSM Eclipse Talon 4G63:eBay Motors (item 370217308317 end time Jul-18-09 12:19:11 PDT)

Thanks for the help!

 

[Jafro]

Sounds like pretty standard lifter tick to me. Mine did that until I put a new set of revised (top-line's off of ebay) lifters in it. Purrs like a kitten now.

If you don't follow the bleeding instructions to the letter, you can damage your cams and still make that same noise with "good" lifters. If the car ever sat for a long time, they can gum up and still make that noise...

If your oil is cold or too thick, it can make that noise.

If your oil pressure is too low...

If your oil level is too low...

If there's ever been any trash in your oil since they were installed...

If you've run oil additives since they were installed...

Basically if anything can plug up the lifter or if you have an oiling problem, they'll tick. That's just what hydraulic lifters do. If the lifter's in good shape and oil supply is good and clean, you'll only hear em for a few seconds after a cold start. If you drive the piss out of it on a hot motor and then listen to the idle, how does it sound? Quieter or still noisy?

 

[BogusSVO]

You make this sound like you been having this problem for a while.
Did you pull the old lifters out beacuse of a tic?

Have you checked oil flow/pressure at the head?
Has the head been off and milled?
Are you using head studs?
Is your engine a 1g six bolt with the 2g head?

EDIT: I just went and read your car build up, I see that you have the 6 bolt block, and I will assume the 2G head w/arp studs.
read this http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/newbie-forum/341028-4g63t-head-oil-port-mod.html

I would mount a mechanical oil pressure gauge to the side of the head and check your oil pressuer there. I would almost bet money you will find a pressure/flow drop.

With your cam gears facing the driverside fender, the oil ports I refer to, 1 will face the front of the car the other the pass. side fender, where most 1g turbos are fed oil.
Due to the fact that the 2g head uses 11mm/.433 head bolt and the 1g head uses a 12mm/.470 head bolt
you may have a bulit in oil restricton.
The oil feeds out of the block, through the head gasket,into a trough cast into the head,appox an inch long, to the head bolt hole, up the head bolt, appox 1.250 inch, then into an oil galley cast into the head,to another oil galley, then to the distrabution block which divides it to the lifters and cams.

Now if the oil trough has become smaller, due to milling of the head gasket surface, or that one head bolt passage is restricted due to the larger head stud/bolt, AND that one bolt passage has not been enlarged enough for proper oil flow.
you will restrict the oil flow to the head.

This is based on the limted info I have about your build, and claim of a lifter tic.

 

[JEFFREYCASTGSX]

Are you 100% positive that the sound is coming from the head?

 

[Nofear20]

If you don't follow the bleeding instructions to the letter, you can damage your cams and still make that same noise with "good" lifters. If the car ever sat for a long time, they can gum up and still make that noise... Car hasn't set for more than a week

If your oil is cold or too thick, it can make that noise.

If your oil pressure is too low... Reads good on my oil pressure gauge

If your oil level is too low... Nope its good

If there's ever been any trash in your oil since they were installed... Nope

If you've run oil additives since they were installed... Nope just straight oil nothing else

Basically if anything can plug up the lifter or if you have an oiling problem, they'll tick. That's just what hydraulic lifters do. If the lifter's in good shape and oil supply is good and clean, you'll only hear em for a few seconds after a cold start. If you drive the piss out of it on a hot motor and then listen to the idle, how does it sound? Quieter or still noisy? It really varies... Sometimes they will be loud even when the car is warmed up.. it seems to be getting worse though.. for some reason if I turn the car off and then back on the sound will be gone...

Bogus, good point, but I have never heard of anyone else having any issues with a 6 bolt block and a 2g head? Plus the build was done by English Racing.. I would think they would have some workaround with this issue since they really know their stuff. I will try and get them involved in this thread...

Jeffrey, yeah it sure seems to be coming from the head..

Thanks for the replies guys.. please keep helping!

Also not sure if it matters, but I recently started using Valvoline synthetic 20w50..

 

[LucasEnglish]

Well from the video it sounds like normal DSM lifter problems. Just need to go in and replace the collapsed one.


The Head on the car was drilled out right.

The car has also gone for well over a year with not real tick problems.

It did have new 3g lifters but is sounds like one of them is starting to fail.

Justin says the tick goes away when warm which would not be a sign that the oil pressure is low since its the highest when cold.

 

[Jafro]

You won't have any oil supply problems with a 2g head on a 1g block. It's a great setup. Everything lines up once you drill out the stud holes.

I think it's the too thick thing suggested above.

You're in the wrong climate to need that oil in any season unless you have 200k miles on factory bearings. 20w50 is twice as big of a molecule than factory oil clearances require. It's likely that it's too thick to flow enough volume to fill the lifter even with good oil pressure until it's hot enough to flow and that's why it's intermittent. They're 2 piece lifters with just a tiny pee-hole valve to fill them up after the cam squishes it.

I would change back to the factory recommended 10w30 non-synthetic for a test and see if it still does it. It can take a loooong time for the lifters to flush out with the new oil. If after a while it still ticks at idle after driving hard, then I'd throw a new set of lifters in there because that's all that's left. See what your knock sensor says after the oil change.

If you have to change the lifters, you can do it in the driveway with a screwdriver without removing the cams or timing belt. Just do it over pavement because those rockers like to get airborne and you will never find them in grass or gravel.

 

[DSMunknown]

The link you added to your original post shows these lash adjusters, identical to what ITM offers.


4G63T Mitsubishi Lash Adjusters


If you can narrow down the faulty lifter(s), you'll just need to replace that many. Taking off the valve cover and starting the car will work. Oil will fly everywhere, so keep some clean rags/automotive paper towels handy. Just did that today. Pretty cool to see oil flying everywhere.

 

[Nofear20]

You won't have any oil supply problems with a 2g head on a 1g block. It's a great setup. Everything lines up once you drill out the stud holes.

I think it's the too thick thing suggested above.

You're in the wrong climate to need that oil in any season unless you have 200k miles on factory bearings. 20w50 is twice as big of a molecule than factory oil clearances require. It's likely that it's too thick to flow enough volume to fill the lifter even with good oil pressure until it's hot enough to flow and that's why it's intermittent. They're 2 piece lifters with just a tiny pee-hole valve to fill them up after the cam squishes it.

I would change back to the factory recommended 10w30 non-synthetic for a test and see if it still does it. It can take a loooong time for the lifters to flush out with the new oil. If after a while it still ticks at idle after driving hard, then I'd throw a new set of lifters in there because that's all that's left. See what your knock sensor says after the oil change.

If you have to change the lifters, you can do it in the driveway with a screwdriver without removing the cams or timing belt. Just do it over pavement because those rockers like to get airborne and you will never find them in grass or gravel.

The bad ticking was there before I even started using the thicker oil. I started using it becuase my oil pressure would get a bit low after extended driving on hot days. BUT.. with that being said the ticking has seemed to get worse over the past couple months...

 

[Jafro]

The bad ticking was there before I even started using the thicker oil. I started using it becuase my oil pressure would get a bit low after extended driving on hot days. BUT.. with that being said the ticking has seemed to get worse over the past couple months...

Hmm... 'guess the best way out is a new set of lifters, then. 'cause that's all that's left.

Low oil pressure at idle is pretty normal on a hot engine. Especially a 4g63. Besides, you have a 6-bolt shortblock and raising the idle oil pressure is something that people do in fear of crankwalk (which shouldn't ever be a problem for you).

The rest of this is my opinion... For the sake of your internals, I would not run thicker oil, because the oil clearances for the mains, rods and cams are based on the recommended oil's weight, and thicker oil effectively "tightens" oil clearances. On a high mile engine, I might run 10w40, but I would not step up to 20w on an otherwise healthy turbo motor because of the friction (heat) that would result from it. That oil will not flow through your oil passages as well as 10w30, and that's why it raises the oil pressure.

 

[Nofear20]

I am so irritated with my car at this point. I started it up this morning to hear a clunking and squeeking of the belts like always. But once the clunking stopped there was barely any lifter tick at all... BUT I was STILL getting knock in 1st 2nd and 3rd gear when lightly accelerating. I have no idea what to do, no idea what the noises are? no idea why the knock comes and goes like that?. Driving it off a cliff could solve the problems.

 

[Nofear20]

Hmm... 'guess the best way out is a new set of lifters, then. 'cause that's all that's left.

Low oil pressure at idle is pretty normal on a hot engine. Especially a 4g63. Besides, you have a 6-bolt shortblock and raising the idle oil pressure is something that people do in fear of crankwalk (which shouldn't ever be a problem for you).

The rest of this is my opinion... For the sake of your internals, I would not run thicker oil, because the oil clearances for the mains, rods and cams are based on the recommended oil's weight, and thicker oil effectively "tightens" oil clearances. On a high mile engine, I might run 10w40, but I would not step up to 20w on an otherwise healthy turbo motor because of the friction (heat) that would result from it. That oil will not flow through your oil passages as well as 10w30, and that's why it raises the oil pressure.

It would get dangerously low.. Like 4 psi, and the oil warning light would come on. That happened a couple times after driving on the freeway in the middle of the summer

 

[BogusSVO]

The reason I told you about the oil mod, Is a good friend of mine has a BUNCH of DSMs with the 4g63,Like 8 or 9,
He had lifter tic, and swapped out the lifters, still had it, swapped out to the 3g lifters, still had it.
then, I forget why but he pulled the head, and had me surface it, Thats when I noticed the oil trough in the head, and did that first oil mod. and then the tic went away.

Try checking your oil pressure at the side of the head, like a 1g turbo oil feed,its a 1/8npt plug, and see what you are getting.

 

[LucasEnglish]

I have never seen a problem with 20w50 and if you start reving over 8k 20/50 is the only way the oil the pump will live.

The lifter tick is not going to hurt anything nor is the PK knock from the tick. Its just annoying and sounds like crap. The belt squeak is real easy fix. Just need to make the belt tighter.

The problem is real simple just need new lifters and tighten the belts.

 

[Nofear20]

Lucas, I guess I just don't understand why I have to replace the lifters again. I've never heard of anyone else having to replace them again. Not only that, they are only a year old..

Also I checked the alternator belt like you said and it is pretty tight already.... like i can twist it probably only about 60 degrees.

 

[LucasEnglish]

Well I have seen a few 3g lifters fail. Just because its new does not mean its right.

Does suck that one of them failed so soon but that is just how life is sometimes.

 

[Nofear20]

Here's a log of the knock I am getting... just light acceleration

 

[LucasEnglish]

Looks like normal PK lifter knock to me.


If you set the knock to around 3200rpm and 40% TPS it should take care of that until the lifters are dealt with.

 

[GST_Hatchback]

I know most of you guys will tell me to get a new set of lifters but I've heard of mobil 1 curing some peoples tick. Anybody else had luck with switching to that or another oil?

 

[toofast82]

Try putting a can of "Engine Restorer" in there.

 

[dsmfa9nutter]

Changing weights won't cure your lifter tick. I have heard of some using about a 1/3rd of a bottle of lucas oil additive and it helping the noise but your best bet is to head to ebay and get a set of 3rd gen for $75/shipped.

 

[GTOJohnny67]

I had a lifter making noise in my GST. I changed to a 10W40 and added Lucas oil stabilizer. It hasn't made a sound in months. From my experience engine restore is just a magic snake oil. There is a thread on here somewhere about Lucas products.