- Thread starter
- #51
yoshimitsuspeed
15+ Year Contributor
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- Jul 17, 2004
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portland,
Oregon
Good lord it's turned into lord of the flys in here.
I would have liked to have an educated discussion on the topic but I guess I was asking too much. Some of you have had good input but I have better things to do that read through all the 12 year old circle jerk and back patting.
A couple quick things.
My car is still running a BOV.
Talking about my car was in no way bragging about the size of my turbo or how much boost I was running or how much power I was making. It was merely an update as to what I have been doing in the last 10 years. Not that I recognize anyone on here who would care.
I took a different route. How many people here are running 7 PSI on 11:1 compression on a stock ECU designed for 8 PSI at 8:1 compression?
As was already posted several times on this thread, there are a number of people running 3:1+ PRs on MR2s, Alltracks and other 3SGTEs.
Sorry guys but you aren't as cool as you think you are if you think you have the monopoly on high boost motors. From what I have seen at least a good lot of them are running without BOVs.
As for those thinking I am trying to impose my beliefs on others not to run a BOV I think you should read this thread again and compare my posts to the disrespectful and condescending posts of others. I don't even have a belief one way or the other. I wish I could impose that belief on more of you.
Had we gotten to the point of having an intelligent conversation or had anyone actually asked for more proof or info I would have gladly posted more, searched more and likely learned more myself in the process.
Since that didn't happen I'll just leave a few things here that do provide more solid evidence against your general consensus than anyone here has been able to prove for it. Again, not to convince anyone but just to make people think.
AutoSpeed - Nizpro's Simon Gishus - Part 2
Anyway I could go on and on and on and on.
But I have better things to do.
Take it for what it is. Information from a different perspective. That's it.
I would have liked to have an educated discussion on the topic but I guess I was asking too much. Some of you have had good input but I have better things to do that read through all the 12 year old circle jerk and back patting.
A couple quick things.
My car is still running a BOV.
Talking about my car was in no way bragging about the size of my turbo or how much boost I was running or how much power I was making. It was merely an update as to what I have been doing in the last 10 years. Not that I recognize anyone on here who would care.
I took a different route. How many people here are running 7 PSI on 11:1 compression on a stock ECU designed for 8 PSI at 8:1 compression?
As was already posted several times on this thread, there are a number of people running 3:1+ PRs on MR2s, Alltracks and other 3SGTEs.
Sorry guys but you aren't as cool as you think you are if you think you have the monopoly on high boost motors. From what I have seen at least a good lot of them are running without BOVs.
As for those thinking I am trying to impose my beliefs on others not to run a BOV I think you should read this thread again and compare my posts to the disrespectful and condescending posts of others. I don't even have a belief one way or the other. I wish I could impose that belief on more of you.
Had we gotten to the point of having an intelligent conversation or had anyone actually asked for more proof or info I would have gladly posted more, searched more and likely learned more myself in the process.
Since that didn't happen I'll just leave a few things here that do provide more solid evidence against your general consensus than anyone here has been able to prove for it. Again, not to convince anyone but just to make people think.
AutoSpeed - Nizpro's Simon Gishus - Part 2
I've actually talked to an individual who works at Borg Warner's main facility about not running a BOV/by-pass valve and that the affects on the turbo itself are negligible. Here is his response:
"This is true, if you ever have a chance to see compressor surge tests done by the manufacture you will understand how much surge it takes to damage a turbo.
If you are on the top speed line (top speed line differs depending on wheel size) for example a medium sized turbo's max speed is somewhere in the neighborhood of 145 Krpm, now if you hit surge too hard at that point it can multiply trust loads 10 fold and cause a instant failure.
But the turbo will never see the condidtions that we test them under when applied to an engine."
The math has been done... The forces that cause compressor surge when the throttle plate closes pale in comparison with the other forces that are going on in there...
Numerous Video evidence has proven that pre-throttle plate pressures dont spike that much after a hard pull and and abrupt throttle close.
Turbo RPM speed sensor measurements have also proven little to no evidence that there are spooling improvements.
Ill be honest with you, I too used to think that a BOV was put in place to protect your engine from damage. But I think it was Texas awhile back who said that how much force do you honestly think 40psi of air in a 3 or 4 liter space has on an object that generates as much torque as your crankshaft spinning at 8000 RPM, Im talking of course about your turbo spinning at 100000RPMs...
Race car drivers NEVER use them... the only people that do are OEMs to reduce engine noise, and fanboy ricers...
The only time compressor surge is bad is if you are on boost. This means your turbo is improperly sized for you engine...
It depends on what you want. If you either like the BOV sound, or you like a quiet motor, then use a BOV.
If you are building a car that you actually want to go fast then go without...
The lie is that a BOV provides any degree of protection for your motor.
Its a tool used by BOV manufacturers to scare you into buying one.
Nothing in your link makes reference to damage caused by off-throttle compressor surge. I've yet to find ANY case of a turbo that was damaged by said phenomenon (that wasn't misdiagnosed).
Corky Bell, author of Maximum Boost has publicly stated the he's never seen a turbo damaged by off-throttle surge.
We could rehash this all over again, but it's already been said. Pablo posted the link.
What it boils down to is if it makes you feel better, run one. If you want better boost response between shifts, remove it. The turbo can handle it.
Me? I'm 2 years on a 20 year old turbo (from a vehicle that never had an oem BOV) at ~20psi with no problems. The car is faster without it, so that's the road I've chosen. Do the research and make your own decision.
Another happy BOV-less user here. LOVE the feel of the car without it and had zero problems with the turbo or ever seen any damage caused by off-throttle surge like said above.
On throttle surge is a whole different can of worms and can cause problems.
Also, small correction to an earlier post where i got credit for the math behind the turbo to flywheel comparison, that was actually scarecrow that did that math IIRC. I just checked it out and found it to be correct with some google searching. It even surprised me.
2years, 10000 hard/boosted miles (not a DD), 20-21psi, no bov, all is well.
Much better response between shifts.
Car came from japan with the ic pipe having no bov flange, so also ran who knows what boost and for how many miles without a bov on top of what I've done on it.
Granted it's an uprated apexi IHI turbo.
I will continue to run with no bov
Look up Crawford Performance. They build a GT35 turbo kit / FMIC kit for the Subaru STI, and do not provide any provision for a BOV. Everyone that has one loves it from what I could find.
Next is the fact that Crawford Performance offers their kits without BOV's... I checked for myself to be sure and on both the turbo and IC kits they aren't there. In fact, HERE is a quote from Crawford Performance in THIS thread on NASIOC:Originally Posted by Crawford Performance
08-05-2009, 11:09 AM #21
Crawford Performance
Former Vendor
Member#: 42075
Join Date: Aug 2003
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: Oceanside
We have been working on turbo cars for twenty years that do not have any sort of bov.
We have seen a few charge pipes blow off but never had a turbo fail that incorporates a left handed thread on the turbine shaft. In the old days when the threads were right handed, some of the drag cars would spit off the compressor wheel at the end of the burnout
Team Crawford
Anyway I could go on and on and on and on.
But I have better things to do.
Take it for what it is. Information from a different perspective. That's it.