Another quick question, about 1st gear popping out

[pauleyman]

Resting hand on shifter, check. Clutch drag due to pedal slop, check. Not necessarily the greatest shifting skills in the world, check. Excessive downshifting to engine brake, check.

Yeah, between the pedal slop and my shifting, I'm pretty sure I know what caused this (and what needs to be done to prevent it recurring in the future). But that's all past and at this point there's nothing to do buy open is up and see what's going on, and do whatever has to be done.

By "non replaceable parts" I assume you meant all parts that are supposed to be replaced when you take the trans apart, like springs, detent balls, pins, etc., right? I already have new seals, all OEM, except the input shaft seal, which I need to order, also OEM.

Aren't the cone bearings usually destroyed when you take the stack apart, and so have to be replaced as well? What about the needle bearings and their sleeves?

And why would I want to put in a double synchro on the 2nd? Isn't that more for higher HP setups and for folks who race?

Non replaceable list isn't that long. Pins, end nuts seals.
Cone bearings are not destroyed if all you're doing is taking apart the stacks. You can remove the bearing and gears all at once. Pay attention on the input. You
. must remove the 5th gear needle sleeve first. There is a snap ring under it then you can remove 3/4 assembly.

 

[XC92]

Stupid question, but are there places where you can rent a space to work on your car, say by the day, week, month, etc., that charge reasonable rates?

If I knew someone with connections I'd probably be able to find a place for free, e.g. a friend who was a mechanic or worked in an indoor parking lot, but alas I don't.

I can also see about putting the car back in the driveway of a neighbor who let me keep it there for several years, but they're selling it and might not be too keen on that.

And I basically have all the tools I'm likely to need, aside from a press.

 

[92AWDHX40]

If i recall i saw a thread about the rebuild process. Visual Frequently Answered Questions - Home Page (vfaq.com)

 

[92AWDHX40]

Well i think we have helped out as much as we can , you need to source a press and figure out what your going to do.

 

[pboglio]

By preload are you referring to axial preload, which is set with the proper thickness shims, or radial preload, which is actually also set with shims from what I understand? I have all the right sizes of solder for the former, and a decent 1/4" torque wrench for the latter.

Either way I realize that this has to be done right, for a given HP range.

As for shot peening, is that really necessary if I'm running stock with no intention of upping it any time soon, and if I do it would likely be no more than 300HP, and more likely 250HP? I also don't race or have any intention of doing so. At most "spirited" DD.

Shot peening isn't needed for a stock build, no. Preload axial to the gears, the taper bearing preloads. The service manual goes into detail about it.

I assume you have the service manual?

 

[pboglio]

I have the time & tools (mostly), will order and replace whatever new parts I need, am very patient, thorough and deliberate, and will do it right, to the best of my ability. If I have questions, which of course I will, I'll ask, and hopefully get answers.

At worst, if I'm stuck, I'll send out at least a part of the job. But I'm guessing that I won't need to. Everything I've fixed, tends to work well.

My only real concern is, since I have no other place to work on the car at present than the street in front of my home, it'll have to sit there for at least a few weeks, and most likely a month or more, between taking the trans apart to see what's going on, ordering the right parts, waiting for them to arrive, and installing them properly, including the shimmiig process, etc.

The concern is that they finally decide to tear up the street and put in new asphalt, since we're overdue for it, or some other repairs have to be made to the street right where the car is parked. I can probably push the car into a neighbor's driveway for the duration, but it would be a pain.

I also need to find a decent press. Buying one would be a challenge, as I've nowhere to store it once the work is done, and I won't need it for a long time after. Perhaps I can buy a used one then sell it when I'm done, or find a neighbor or friend who has one.

Alternately, I was wondering if there are pullers and presses that use a forcing bolt or screw that might work, similar to wheel bearing presses. Or, I could possibly built my own press with a 6 ton bottle jack I have. Do you have thoughts about either of these options?

Sorry about all the questions, but prep work, which includes research and having everything you'll need in place, is half the job, in my experience, if not more so.

First, the shops have the FIXES for the failure modes. The revised shift forks and stronger shift forks too, double/triple synchro conversions you could never possibly do at home because they modify the transmission, shot peening, all that good stuff. This tends to greatly improve the high rpm shifting, durability, etc. Used to be you could buy all these awesome upgrade parts and do it yourself......I don't see them offering those options anymore for DYI. The parts themselves are getting very scarce. We could back in the day source entire replacement gear stacks, even the 5th gear which could be swapped on the car for different ratios. All that stuff is gone now because DSM's are dinosaurs. Even the 3rd/4th gear EVO upgrade was great with the shorter ratios for better acceleration. So.....you are likely stuck with the parts you have minus the synchros and whatever replacement parts are still available. Just saying, keep that in mind.

Yes, all of the above tools you need. The press can be broken down in pieces and stored under a bench or leaned up against a wall laying down, that's what I do when not in use. The gear splitters gonna need to be needed, plus a die grinder to get a knife edge to squeeze between the bearing and the gear to "split" it. I use the TJ-1 which has tiny little hooks that get in tight, otherwise a bearing spliiter can wedge in there and pop it off enough for the spliiter & puller combo to draw the bearing off the shaft. Cheap Harbor freight press works well, 12 ton at most, the gear stacks are long so keep that in mind. Lubricate everything, measure everything before and after you pull bearings off. Also, this should be common sense but any bearing you remove.....is garbage and should be thrown out as they are removed by the outer race. Use impact sockets and the press to drive the inner bearing sleeve/race, never the outer portion or the bearing is junk. If you don't bottom/seat a bearing you can throw the preload out the window. I check everything from the bearing face back to the shaft end before I remove things on a transmission, then bottom out the bearing during the install and the measurement needs to be bang on. Not rocket science.

 

[bastarddsm]

More than likely it has significant thrust wear on the gear thrust faces, 1/2 hub, and inner bearing race thrust surface. If you can still get new parts this is probably $500.

 

[XC92]

Shot peening isn't needed for a stock build, no. Preload axial to the gears, the taper bearing preloads. The service manual goes into detail about it.

I assume you have the service manual?

Yep, I have both the physical and PDF versions and refer to them all the time.

At what approximate power level do you have to start thinking about shot peening?

As for your other post, I'm confused. You say that any bearing that's removed is toast, but then you say how to remove it properly so it isn't trashed. Which is it?

I mean this:

Also, this should be common sense but any bearing you remove.....is garbage and should be thrown out as they are removed by the outer race. Use impact sockets and the press to drive the inner bearing sleeve/race, never the outer portion or the bearing is junk.

Thanks for the tip about measuring everything before removing anything, to have something to compare against when reinstalling everything. This wouldn't have occurred to me. Of course this only works if things are properly installed presently.

And as for buying parts, 1st gear, 1/2 fork, hub & sleeve, 1 & 2 synchros, keys & springs all appear to still be available, at Jack's and Mitsu dealers. But, again, I won't know what needs to and should be replaced until I open it up and have a look. Hopefully it's all available, and if anything isn't, it's more in the "should be" than "needs to be" replaced category.

I've priced what I'm guessing I need and it looks for be around $500 give or take. But maybe I'll luck out and it'll be less. I also have to spend a bunch on the clutch pedal fix, new or rebuilt MC, flywheel, fork, etc. All told it'll approach $1000. What can you do.

 

[pboglio]

Removing a bearing destroys it, the proper way to remove it is whatever it takes to get it off the shaft without damaging the shaft. I've cut bearing cages in half to get access to the bearing inner race to pull on it. You can only install a press bearing (1) time because the way it's removed is by applying pressure on the outer bearing race which ruins the bearings. Installs are on the inner race which puts zero pressure on the taper/ball bearings. Install on the outer race and you will be having fun dropping and rebuilding the transmission again. If you want exact methods you can look at the SKF or various bearing catalogs and they go into extreme detail on how these things are done. That's it cut and dry.

Yep, measure it and you won't guess if you applied enough pressure or not.

Shot peening required depending on how hard you beat on it. I broke transmissions at 300-320 whp, then started murdering them at 400 whp levels of torque. The shot peening probably increased life by a factor of (3x). Cheapest mod I did and worth it.

 

[pauleyman]

If you can get under a bearing inner race you can reuse it. I don't remove the bearings by themselves on the gear clusters. I remove the entire stack all at once. In those cases the bearing can be reused if it's ok.

 

[XC92]

My only experience with vehicle bearings is front wheel interference mount bearings that are destroyed upon removal, but then that's not an issue because the reason to remove them is because they're gone and need replacement.

I've done it three times, on each front wheel of a different car (2010 Kia Rio). The third time is because I did one wrong by initially pressing on the outer race when installing on the hub. I realized my mistake almost right away, but by then the damage had been done.

I actually completed the installation in case there was no damage, but within a few hundred miles there was a lot of play and I realized I had to redo it. Did it right and it's been fine since. I bought a wheel bearing kit which obviated the need for a press.

I assume that the general principle is much the same, i.e. interference/press fit, except that it might be possible to save the bearing if you can get the tool under the inner race. Might still be worth replacing if it's in so-so shape. I'll figure it out when I get there.

Of course as per everyone's advice I can't use a special puller to do any of this and have to use a real press. I'll figure out a way to get one. Is a 6 ton ok, or do I need 12 or more?

 

[pauleyman]

I use a 20. 12 is fine. 6 is probably fine but they're small. I don't use any special bearing separators nor do I grind them down.
All my tools are off the shelf. Only one I made instead of bought was an input shaft holder. I cut up an old clutch disc and welded the hub to a cheap impact socket

 

[luv2rallye]

Btw your first link is to an image, not a thread. The second doesn't take me anywhere. The third I'm familiar with. It's kind of slow so I've been downloading images.

The first link is what a worn hub looks like. The second link works for me. The third is a great article.

Here's another link on a 90 tranny rebiuld: http://www.vfaq.com/mods/Trannyrebuild.html

And some more tips: https://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/f5m33-rebuild-dsm-fwd-transmission.317077/#post-151757065

 

[XC92]

I use a 20. 12 is fine. 6 is probably fine but they're small. I don't use any special bearing separators nor do I grind them down.
All my tools are off the shelf. Only one I made instead of bought was an input shaft holder. I cut up an old clutch disc and welded the hub to a cheap impact socket

There are lots of articles and video on how to build a DIY press online, so I'll look into those. Having a smallish press will be useful in the future and storing it shouldn't be too much of a problem. It's those shop-sized ones that would be a problem for me, even disassembled. Hopefully 6 tons should be enough. If not I'll get a 12 ton. I think I can find the bearing and gear puller and installer kits via auto store loaner programs. And I might try to fashion one of those shaft tools with my old clutch disc.