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Alternator Group Buy - Final Diameter Poll

Posted by unorthodox, May 21, 2018

Please Support Boostin Performance
  1. Stock Diameter

    12.8%
  2. 10% Underdrive

    35.9%
  3. 15% Underdrive

    17.9%
  4. 20% Underdrive

    33.3%
  5. 25% Underdrive

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. unorthodox

    unorthodox Supporting Vendor

    6
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    Joined Oct 30, 2009
    Gainesville, Georgia
    The 1G and GM/Saturn alternator pulleys can be made from the 2G. So

    10 pieces is the minimum qty for each size but that the price drops at 20 and 30 pieces.

    Alternator Pulley
    2G (Stock Diameter, 10 & 15% underdrive)
    10-19 $100
    20-29 $80
    30+ $70

    1G & GM/Saturn (Stock Diameter, 10 & 15% underdrive)
    2G (20 & 25% underdrive)
    10-19 $110
    20-29 $90
    30+ $80

    1G & GM/Saturn (20 & 25% underdrive)
    10-19 $115
    20-29 $95
    30+ $85

    Shipping will be Priority Mail flat rate envelope (signature required).
    $8.90

    After 7 days any choice that does not reach 10 pieces will require those voters to change to their second diameter choice.
     

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  2. BoostedTalonTS

    BoostedTalonTS Proven Member

    629
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    Joined Mar 21, 2002
    Bay Area, California
    I knew it! I'm glad that I stumbled across this... been rocking a Saturn/2g pulley for years! -It also helps with the Saturn's relocation clearance to the subframe as well
     
    My DSM:
    1994 Eagle Talon TSi AWD

    12.760 @ 112.400 MPH
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    unorthodox likes this.
  3. calgst95

    calgst95 Proven Member

    21
    11
    Joined Dec 23, 2004
    bakersfield, California
    I’d be in for a 2g
     
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  4. unorthodox

    unorthodox Supporting Vendor

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    Gainesville, Georgia
    Don't foget to vote!

    There is also another thread for the other pulleys :)
     
  5. lasthope05

    lasthope05 Proven Member

    837
    176
    Joined Mar 31, 2006
    Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
    I hope people are thinking about parts combinations when deciding on a UD percentage.

    A 10% UD wont yield much if any gains for the people who run fluidamprs since it actually overdrives the water pump/alternator.
     
  6. unorthodox

    unorthodox Supporting Vendor

    6
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    Joined Oct 30, 2009
    Gainesville, Georgia
    A common misconception.

    Unless the FD is an overdrive crank pulley then this is not the case. Overdrive at the crank and underdrive at the accessories would cancel out depending on the percentages. The bigger issue is if the FD is underdrive. This could cause an issue as the combination might lead to too much underdrive.

    Depending on the underdrive an alternator pulley could yield 1-2 HP. A combination of all the accessory pulleys could yield 5-8 WHP. Add the stock diameter crank pulley and this number can easily go into the low to mid 20 WHP range. 80-85% of the gains from UR pulleys comes from the weight reduction, the underdrive is done mainly to slow accessories down slightly as the factory over spins them. It does yield some perfromance as is worthwhile when it can be designed. Underdrive is also important when rev limits are raised underdrive also keeps the accessories from way over spinning. Example is the water pump which will cavitate and stop moving water. Great example is the SR20DE FWD which even stock cavitates the water pump at continues high rpm use say on a road course.

    Our accessory pulleys will help bring back the power lost from using a heavier than stock crank pulley. We say crank pulley because a true engine protection damper must be interference fit to the crankshaft. The 4 bolt mounting design of the 4G63's crank pulley renders any engine protection damper ineffective at best. We have no intention to offend anyone, as everyone is entitled to their own opinion. We feel it is important to know the facts beyond the opinions. You are free to believe as you wish and we accept that albeit begrudgingly ;)
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2018
    greengoblin likes this.
  7. lasthope05

    lasthope05 Proven Member

    837
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    Joined Mar 31, 2006
    Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
    The Fluidampr IS an overdrive damper/pulley. The outer accessory drive diameter is much larger than stock. Of course, it is all going to depend on the percentage of overdrive as no one has done the calculations compared to the stock unit. However, there is plenty of documented cases of the stock belts fitting so tight that you have to take the tensionser all the way out of adjustment or remove them first to put the belts back on.

    I just wanted to put that information out that as most people don't even realize the little things when trying to pick the corrent parts for their cars. I can give you the measurements if you want to do the calculations so we can see a percentage value.
     
  8. unorthodox

    unorthodox Supporting Vendor

    6
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    Joined Oct 30, 2009
    Gainesville, Georgia
    We would be glad to calculate the percentages based on the FD crank pulley. Please send us the diameter dimension from the top of the teeth of each belt section.

    The misconception comment was referring to the won't yield any gains if any for FD runners. The gains do vary but they can be substantial especially when trying to off-set the losses from the larger and heavier FD crank pulley.
     
  9. lasthope05

    lasthope05 Proven Member

    837
    176
    Joined Mar 31, 2006
    Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
    Both inner an outer rib is about 19 3/8 ". Also the reason we run fluidamprs is because of rules stating you need an approved SFI damper.
     
  10. unorthodox

    unorthodox Supporting Vendor

    6
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    Joined Oct 30, 2009
    Gainesville, Georgia
    Thank you.

    So that circumference works out to about 156mm diameter. The stock diameters are 149mm for the outer belt section and the inner belt section is 156mm. This works out to 5% overdrive for the outer belt section which is weird. It looks like for no other reason but to make the part simpler to make they made both sections 156mm. The only time you normally ever overdrive is when driving a supercharger to make more boost.

    SFI would only apply if a damper was needed. Of course if you mount one then it must be SFI. Sadly it kills between 15-30 HP depending on the engines output and rev range.

    A solid pulley by its basic design doesn't require SFI approval.

    Going back to the accessory pulleys you will lose 5% of the underdrive if you use a FD.
     
  11. Boomdeeze

    Boomdeeze Proven Member

    1,415
    168
    Joined Jul 5, 2009
    Independence, Minnesota
    Many of the people who would buy this for the over revving alternator also run the FD. In that case, it's hard to justify it for 5% so I will change my vote to 15%.
     
    My DSM:
    1997 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX

    Street Build

    10.793 @ 128.98 MPH
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  12. unorthodox

    unorthodox Supporting Vendor

    6
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    Joined Oct 30, 2009
    Gainesville, Georgia
    Makes sense to go to 15 or 20 on the alternator and 15 on the other accessories. Those running an FD need to come together and make up there own group of atleast 10 especially for the other accessories which need to move to 15% underdrive for them so they can get the 10% underdrive.
     
  13. rabenne

    rabenne Proven Member

    482
    59
    Joined Apr 21, 2006
    Kenosha, Wisconsin
    Could you please elaborate on why these are ineffective? Or point me to a reference? Very interested, as I have been planning to purchase a fluidampr. I appreciate any info you can provide.
     
    My DSM:
    1995 Eagle Talon TSi

    Street Build

    50trim   manual
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  14. unorthodox

    unorthodox Supporting Vendor

    6
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    Joined Oct 30, 2009
    Gainesville, Georgia
    In order for a damper to function effectively on an automotive engine that sees such varied rpm range and acceleration rates in must be one with the crankshaft it is protecting. In order to be one with the crankshaft the damper has to be pressed or heated and pressed onto the crankshaft snout. The 4G63 crank pulley uses 4 small bolts and is only a mated to the front crank face with a locational fit in. The interference fit of the crankshaft and the damper transfers all the frequency and torsional without any the break in signal or motion. If a damper is not interference fit it will never be in sync with the crankshaft motions or transfer frequencies accurately. The factory crank pulley, on any car we make crank pulleys for, is only designed to quiet audible NVH (Noise, Vibration & Harshness) that is not detrimental to the engine. See the Continental belt data and graph, that we show on both sites (see below), that clearly demonstrates how important audible noise is to car manufacturers. We talk about this very important fact along with many other inconvenient truths on our web (unorthodoxracing.com) and FB (facebook.com/unorthodoxracing) pages.
     
  15. lasthope05

    lasthope05 Proven Member

    837
    176
    Joined Mar 31, 2006
    Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
    Do you have any real quantifiable data you can share? Papers written or testing done on harmonics? I briefly read through your UR.edu page and saw no such thing. The only thing I really got from it was UR having a disagreement against "Steve Dinan".

    Also while we don't really see problems with the 2.0l's we do have harmonic issues with our 2.3l stroker and 2.4l motors and cracking the #4 rod journals (farthest away from the harmonic damper).
     
    Murdertalon likes this.
  16. rabenne

    rabenne Proven Member

    482
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    Joined Apr 21, 2006
    Kenosha, Wisconsin
    That is what I was hoping for as well. Please feel free to get as technical as necessary. I am an ME, so I just want to understand how they are so different? Your site reads like a conspiracy theorist's blog. No offence, I haven't researched this topic very much, and I am not ready to make any conclusions. I did notice that you do not list any references on your site.

    I am sure OE's are concerned with NVH, but you do understand that vibration is what causes noise, right? Is this vibration detrimental to engines? I have no idea, and I plan to do quite a bit more research on the topic. But, I am struggling with understanding why a damper would need to be press-fit versus bolted on, and without any references, you are essentially asking me to take your word for it.
     
    My DSM:
    1995 Eagle Talon TSi

    Street Build

    50trim   manual
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  17. unorthodox

    unorthodox Supporting Vendor

    6
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    Joined Oct 30, 2009
    Gainesville, Georgia
    lasthope05:
    There is no data necessary for any motor we make pulleys for as it is unnecessary. We have done all manner harmionic testing on the engine platforms that require a damper, namely cross plane v8 engines. This testing was done during in the development of a damper technology we have a patent on. If the only thing you got our of our UR.edu page is that we have a disagreement with Steve Dinan then we are not sure how we can help you. Everything we discuss on UR.edu clearly explains why a damper is not necessary, maybe the "briefly read" part of your post explains that you missed this and much more info. The damper urban myth/legend has been stoked by those who have a singular agenda to promote the economic success of dampers at all costs. Once end-users unknowingly buy into this fiction they develop an emotinal attachment which is near impossible to educate out.

    As for 2.3 and 2.4L cracking rod journals it is simply a function of exceeding the capabilities of the crankshafts design and material strength. A damper may attempt to band-aid this cracking problem but with the massive increases output it will always fail due to the fact that the damper is simply inadequate. It might succeed a little longer/better as a temporary band-aid if it was interference fit to the crankshaft but in the end the cracking is inevitable.

    rabenne:
    Technical is not the issue, even if it was many have trouble underdtanding our simplified information. If all you get is a conspiracy theorists blog you are missing the simplified points we provide. Conspiracy theorists for the most part have no direct connection to what they are discussing, especially from the standpoint that they are not financially vested in what they are trying to prove. We have been providing product in this market for 21 years now, we have a spotless record and are recognized as a conscienscious developer and manufacturer of products that are second to none. Our products do what we say they do, we back them up with a warranty befitting their quality and do so at a price point that is unbeatable. This does not include the decade of hands on experience in wrenching and tuning prior to our founder bringing this product to market. This hands on time was in a market that was the prime groinds for dampers. It doesn't include the years of development our our pulleys and the many engine builders and engineers we worked before and after brininging it to market. As the experts in this product category we easily qualify to be our own reference. If you want references of a sort how abouyt looking at every motor that exists today, from yard equipment to top fuel engines, that don't use a damper of any sort. There are exponentially more engines without dampers than with.

    As explained to lasthope05 we are well aware of what virbation is and how it is caused and how it effects everything around it. The term NVH by itself has been significatnly more focused on the singular aspect of driver isolation that anything else. The example we provide from Continental belts quantifies this exact fact. Our UR.edu page discusses this any many other fascets of these issues very simoply and very openly.

    As an ME we are sure you understand the importance of fit tolerance between components. Too loose and you can create unnecessary motion that can lead to all types of issues depending on what the parts are engineered for. Too tight and the forces necessary for function may become too great and or heat can develop rendering the mate unsustainable for mechanical functionality. With a damper if there is any motion beyond that of the intertia weight countering the torsional motion of the assembly then the opposite action is rendered ineffective because its timing does not match the torsional motion it is supposed to be counteracting. So if the damper is not interference fit then by the nature of this losser fit it can move and rotate around its mounting or location point as with the 4G63. So during rapid acceleration, especially a hard launch or during shofts upp or down the pulley will move clockwise and counter-clockwise to the limit of the tolerance between the keyway and the key or as with the 4G63 between the bolts and the bolt holes. A great example of this is the many times we have seen elongated, mushroomed or broken keys and dowel pins on customers engines and cars we have worked on.

    Respectfully,
    UR
     
  18. rabenne

    rabenne Proven Member

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    Joined Apr 21, 2006
    Kenosha, Wisconsin
    I have never heard of a properly torqued damper rotating around and elongating the bolt holes. Maybe someone on here has, and can chime in. PLEASE DO!

    Maybe this a real problem... I suppose I should take you word for it. If the clamping force is insufficient, I could imagine that happening.

    But honestly, you still have provided no data. Maybe you are right, or maybe you have a singular agenda to promote the economic success of non-damping pulleys at all costs.

    It is difficult to expect someone to take your word for it. No disrespect, I hope you can say something to convince me you are correct. I want to understand the facts.
     
    My DSM:
    1995 Eagle Talon TSi

    Street Build

    50trim   manual
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  19. lasthope05

    lasthope05 Proven Member

    837
    176
    Joined Mar 31, 2006
    Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
    There's actually a few things I could say and argue but I will just leave it at that so we dont muddle up the thread.

    I'm still interested in a 20-25% pulley either way if we ever get enough people. There are already 10-15% pulleys out there that work on our applications so not really interested in those.
     
  20. unorthodox

    unorthodox Supporting Vendor

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    Joined Oct 30, 2009
    Gainesville, Georgia
    Just because you haven't seen it doesn't make it any less real.

    It is not on us to provide data, its up to the damper makers pushing this fallacy to provide the broken engines, specifically the broken cranks. I guess all their fancy "data" makes it real, if so there should be tens of thousands of broken motors with UR pulleys and significantly more with knockoffs pulleys.

    Our almost flawless history, the real world use from street to track over 21+ years, our own damper experience, the basic fundamentals and the simple Continental NVH data speak volumes for us, if that is not enough there is nothing we can say to make you believe.
     
  21. rabenne

    rabenne Proven Member

    482
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    Joined Apr 21, 2006
    Kenosha, Wisconsin
    Its not enough.

    Lasthope05, I would love to hear what you have to say. Pm me if you have time.
     
    My DSM:
    1995 Eagle Talon TSi

    Street Build

    50trim   manual
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  22. rabenne

    rabenne Proven Member

    482
    59
    Joined Apr 21, 2006
    Kenosha, Wisconsin
    My professor from sophomore year Thomas G. is a multi-millionaire for designing, patenting, and marketing his electronic sensors that monitors vibration in heavy equipment. These vibrations have a detrimental effect on the bearing life of reciprocating equipment. To save money on equipment downtime, corporations paid him a great deal.

    There is my anecdotal evidence...
     
    My DSM:
    1995 Eagle Talon TSi

    Street Build

    50trim   manual
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  23. unorthodox

    unorthodox Supporting Vendor

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    Gainesville, Georgia
    Different animal all together, like comparing apples to planets.
     
  24. rabenne

    rabenne Proven Member

    482
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    Joined Apr 21, 2006
    Kenosha, Wisconsin
    Thanks for supporting the platform. We are lucky to have this type of support. I didn't mean to get so far off topic. Best of luck!
     
    My DSM:
    1995 Eagle Talon TSi

    Street Build

    50trim   manual
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  25. unorthodox

    unorthodox Supporting Vendor

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    23
    Joined Oct 30, 2009
    Gainesville, Georgia
     

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