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ECMlink Aenemic E3-16G airflow

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DSMopar

15+ Year Contributor
611
13
Oct 6, 2007
Vista, California
1). Any boost, vac, or exhaust leaks?
Boost leak tested 5psi above your max boost with no leaks?
Sure...
2). Verified mechanical timing?
Yes
3). Verified base timing?
Yes
4). Ignition system
COP or Stock Coil:
Wire brand and Age:
Spark Plug brand, type and Gap:
Stock, BPR7ES
5). Motor health (Compression Test)
Cylinder 1:
Cylinder 2:
Cylinder 3:
Cylinder 4:
N/A

6). Performed basic throttle body adjustments?
Idle Switch:
Throttle Cable:
TPS:
BISS:
Not needed

7). Compression ratio
Whatever a 2g head on a stock 6-bolt block gives
8). Any known bad sensors or brittle wiring?
nupe
9). Any DTC/CEL codes?
nupe
10). Electrical system
Car off (not running):Normal
Car running:Good enough

11). Base fuel pressure and injector values
Base Fuel Pressure:Stock
Injector Size (cc/min): EVO 560s

12). Properly calibrated and configured wideband sensor
Sensor Brand: Innovate (Bosch)
Calibration Date: Not too long ago

13). Type of fuel
Type: 91 pump
Percent of Ethanol:Varies...

14). Watched ECMlink how-to videos?
Nah


Just wanted to compare notes with you guys, car is a 95 talon AWD
- Stock 90 6-bolt bottom
- 2g head
- MHI E3-16g (little bit of surge damage on cold side)
- Evo 3 manifold
- Ported 2g O2 housing
- Megan 3in DP with magnaflow highflow cat
- Ebay 3in catback
- VSRF front mount
- Crushed 1g BOV
- Stock air box, flex section eliminated with hardpipe, restrictive elbow taken off the end and restrictive connector to fender removed
- 1g cams
- ECMlink V3
- Walbro 255

So I built this thing on a budget (if you can tell) the turbo was a craigslist special... as such there's some minor surge damage on the compressor wheel... the tips of a few blades are bent slightly. Never the less it spools and holds boost fine, I was spiking to 26 and holding 24-25 steadily.

That all said I've never been very impressed with the performance, it pulls alright but I gotta say it's not much faster if at all than my old 91 awd talon with a supra side mount, a 14b at 20 lbs and the same injectors. Looking at the airflow kind of shows that, usually between 32 and 35 depending on weather which is ok but not great. I brought it to the local 1/8th and it did about what I expected based on my butt dyno, trapping in the high 81s at best.

It's now getting a MLS headgasket and a stock style compressor housing 68HTA. I had it together briefly but the machinist f***ed the valve job up. That said it was pushing like 22 psi on the wastegate, but barelly any better airflow... about 37 is what I saw. Now that may go up once I fix the valvejob but I don't expect much... so what do you guys think, is mid 30s about right at 24-25 psi on a E316g? Seems weak.... I thought people were trapping more like mid 80s (1/8th) in a stock 2g with these turbos in stock motors.

Log I have is some passes when it was at the 1/8th with the EVO3-16g
 

Attachments

  • Last runs.elg
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Mid to high 30s is right where these turbos hit. Just a few will hit in the low 40's. Port work of the head, cams, ported hotside of the 16g, O2 and exhaust will all affect your airflow. On my e85 16g with 272 cams at 20-21 psi I was hitting 36lb/min on cool weather.
 
At 26psi my EvoIII setup was hitting 40lbs/min of airflow when I put 292 down to the wheels on a mustang dyno tuned by me (I'm sure there was more in it but I was swapping to a 68hta and just wanted to see where it was at, that pull was done a 90+degree day)

Are there any restrictions in your exhaust? Any areas where the diameter of the tubing might drop hard? That will affect airflow. Justin had a great post about airflow being affected by your intake/exhaust setup, basically the faster you can get it in and the more efficiently it can go out the better results you will see.

That being said, Now I'm running the 2nd version of the 68hta and the best airflow I've been able to get so far is about 47lbs/min, and the car doesn't FEEL all that much faster then my EvoIII. I too will be swapping to a v1 68hta over the winter and we may be able to compare notes in the spring.

Just saw you're stuck with 91 octane, that might be as good as your gonna get on that gas, and that's a bit more knock then I'd be comfortable with in your logs.
 

Attachments

  • dyno runs.elg
    159.5 KB · Views: 76
Yes I'm full aware the affects of airflow and engine induction/exhaust componentry. I forgot to mention I was suspecting part of the difference being the head, is this typical of a 2g head/intake manifold? Are they that much shittier airflow-wise than a 1g?

I've considered what else could affect it, really the only thing that comes to mind is the stock airbox, however I did take the aircleaner out and leave the lid loose at the track, saw no difference in airflow.

And yes I'm aware the knock issue, it had been getting worse and worse over the years. I finally ran some E85 for kicks and it was awesome... till the headgasket went (another story). Interestingly I ran it as low as I could and put 91 back in it before I took it down to repair the headgasket and had much less knock. When I took the cylinder off I noticed remnants of some carbon deposits on the pistons... I think the E85 cleaned out the motor :D.
 
I think the E85 cleaned out the motor :D.

Lmao maybe I should run an e85 blend for a little bit to clean mine out. Airflow wise on a 2g I know the ports are much smaller but IFIRK Kiggly and Curt Brown both agreed that the reduced airflow won't become any sort of restriction until about 700hp. Running that level of boost on 91 octane I'd expect it to be about mid 30s. In all honesty it's possible the 2g housing is holding you back, that's the one thing I didn't mention is that I'm externally gated.
 
Yes it's a real mitsu e3... craigslist special but was still $350...

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At 26psi my EvoIII setup was hitting 40lbs/min of airflow when I put 292 down to the wheels on a mustang dyno tuned by me (I'm sure there was more in it but I was swapping to a 68hta and just wanted to see where it was at, that pull was done a 90+degree day)

Are there any restrictions in your exhaust? Any areas where the diameter of the tubing might drop hard? That will affect airflow. Justin had a great post about airflow being affected by your intake/exhaust setup, basically the faster you can get it in and the more efficiently it can go out the better results you will see.

That being said, Now I'm running the 2nd version of the 68hta and the best airflow I've been able to get so far is about 47lbs/min, and the car doesn't FEEL all that much faster then my EvoIII. I too will be swapping to a v1 68hta over the winter and we may be able to compare notes in the spring.

Just saw you're stuck with 91 octane, that might be as good as your gonna get on that gas, and that's a bit more knock then I'd be comfortable with in your logs.

What cams was that setup with?
 
My buddies car that we just finished building has just a regular evo3 16g and we hit 37lbs/min at 16psi. tuned by me its a stock 1g block with a 2g manifold super ported and a punishment o2 dump and a full 3" turboback, 2g Maf, PTE 780s, 3" hard intake, on 93 oct. abs, power steering, ac, cruise all deleted. hitting 19 degrees of timing advance at redline with no knock. 11.5:1 afr at WOT.
 
My buddies car that we just finished building has just a regular evo3 16g and we hit 37lbs/min at 16psi. tuned by me its a stock 1g block with a 2g manifold super ported and a punishment o2 dump and a full 3" turboback, 2g Maf, PTE 780s, 3" hard intake, on 93 oct. abs, power steering, ac, cruise all deleted. hitting 19 degrees of timing advance at redline with no knock. 11.5:1 afr at WOT.

Ok that sounds a bit optimistic, not sure I believe that unless you have decent cams and are spinning it to like 8k
 
Stock cams, only went to about 6500rpm. I can't find the exact log but here is one i found of when we were in the middle of the tune process (and hit 36.6) so the maf comp and injectors aren't quite right in this one. got a hair of knock before I pulled a little timing and then dialed in the afr to 11.5 in the final tune.

I also have logs of hitting 31lb/min on wasegate pressure. same car.

I'm not trying to be crazy or bullshit or anything LOL. It could just be we found the magic balance between all the components!
 

Attachments

  • Austin Pull Example.elg
    36.1 KB · Views: 71
Boost leaks will provide false airflow readings. That's how I managed 46lbs/min out of an evoIII at 22psi. I try to boost leak before providing any information that might skewed.

What cams was that setup with?

The comp "272s" or FP2 equivalent. They are installed straight up and I believe are quite out of.. phase? I need to degree them, I lost almost 600rpm in spool time on my evoIII 16g setup. I used to be able to get a bit of wheelspin in 1st when the car hit boost but after the cams no such thing.. Now hitting 26psi at 4500rpm with the 68hta the car will fight for traction if I romp on it in first. Can't wait to throw the v1 on and have 1st gear be usable again :)
 
Boost leaks will provide false airflow readings. That's how I managed 46lbs/min out of an evoIII at 22psi. I try to boost leak before providing any information that might skewed.

Ya exactly, sounds like his MAF data is garbage :p
 
Yes it's a real mitsu e3... craigslist special but was still $350...

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49178-01420 is a standard Big 16G, not an Evo III.

Still a good turbo, but these tend to top out around 38 lb/min so 34/35 is acceptable to be honest.
 
49178-01420 is a standard Big 16G, not an Evo III.

Still a good turbo, but these tend to top out around 38 lb/min so 34/35 is acceptable to be honest.

LOL oops, guess I never bothered to run the numbers...
 
LOL oops, guess I never bothered to run the numbers...

Are you running 91 oct with 25 psi and 35 lb/min of airflow without knock? What does your timing look like? I have the same turbo (MHI B16G), lightly ported stock 2g manifold, stock 2g 7 bolt engine, full 3" exhaust with high flow cat, and 2 straight through mufflers. I am at high elevation (4500+ ft) with air density much worse. I am seeing 21 psi on cool mornings, max of 31 lb/min, and I still get knock occasionally even with a completely stock 2g timing map. I've had to pull a degree or 2 in several places to bring it down to only a degree here and there.
 
Are you running 91 oct with 25 psi and 35 lb/min of airflow without knock? What does your timing look like? I have the same turbo (MHI B16G), lightly ported stock 2g manifold, stock 2g 7 bolt engine, full 3" exhaust with high flow cat, and 2 straight through mufflers. I am at high elevation (4500+ ft) with air density much worse. I am seeing 21 psi on cool mornings, max of 31 lb/min, and I still get knock occasionally even with a completely stock 2g timing map. I've had to pull a degree or 2 in several places to bring it down to only a degree here and there.

Pulling time is fine. You set timing for your desired turbo/boost threshold. Fyi... I've never gone up in timing on regular pumpgas. Always down.
 
Are you running 91 oct with 25 psi and 35 lb/min of airflow without knock? What does your timing look like? I have the same turbo (MHI B16G), lightly ported stock 2g manifold, stock 2g 7 bolt engine, full 3" exhaust with high flow cat, and 2 straight through mufflers. I am at high elevation (4500+ ft) with air density much worse. I am seeing 21 psi on cool mornings, max of 31 lb/min, and I still get knock occasionally even with a completely stock 2g timing map. I've had to pull a degree or 2 in several places to bring it down to only a degree here and there.

I am, and no I do have knock issues. Like said in the post after yours you should be pulling timing from the stock 2g map. How much knock depends on the gear, nothing in 1st or second, 3rd is ok sometimes, 4th and 5th have the most. I leave my timing aggressive and let the knock system do its work, I feel as long as I'm not above 5 degrees knock retard I'm ok. I can pull out enough timing so there's no knock in 4th or 5th but you're just needlessly killing performance in 1st/2nd/3rd. ECMlink really needs a function for timing retard based on vehicle speed....

I'll see if I can't upload a pic of my timing map soon
 
Tuning by knock sensor on a modified car doesn't work very well. Tuning by knock doesn't really work that well period. Knock is a sign that you're already torching something, it shouldn't be a "whoops" moment saying to back something off. If you tune by knock you're going to blow something up eventually and then all you'll be left with is your log (if you were even taking one) showing that yep, there's my problem before it knocked. You should be seeing your problem in the tune before you ever encounter knock.

It's also worth noting that, for those that understand how the knock sensor works, it's tuned for a certain frequency. This means that it's listening for a very specific sound and filtering others out. When you modify your motor, you change the way knock sounds inside your motor and you've done nothing to tune what your knock sensor is listening for. This is a recipe for disaster and I wouldn't get comfortable with the idea that your knock sensor is going to pull you out of the weeds tune-wise at any point..... unless your car is completely stock.
 
Tuning by knock sensor on a modified car doesn't work very well. Tuning by knock doesn't really work that well period. Knock is a sign that you're already torching something, it shouldn't be a "whoops" moment saying to back something off. If you tune by knock you're going to blow something up eventually and then all you'll be left with is your log (if you were even taking one) showing that yep, there's my problem before it knocked. You should be seeing your problem in the tune before you ever encounter knock.

It's also worth noting that, for those that understand how the knock sensor works, it's tuned for a certain frequency. This means that it's listening for a very specific sound and filtering others out. When you modify your motor, you change the way knock sounds inside your motor and you've done nothing to tune what your knock sensor is listening for. This is a recipe for disaster and I wouldn't get comfortable with the idea that your knock sensor is going to pull you out of the weeds tune-wise at any point..... unless your car is completely stock.

Actually the mitsubishi knock system is very good, it's very responsive and fairly conservative. I used to run a 1g with a 14b at 20 psi with a sidemount and regularly saw max knock counts, bought it with 100k sold it with 135k still running strong. This 2g has a 6 bolt block I got out of the junkyard, stock pistons stock rods, honed re-ringed and new bearings. Put 30k on it with the big 16g seeing 5+ degrees in 4th/5th regularly. Pistons looked brand new (except for carbon).

And no you're wrong about the way a knock sensor detects knock. The only thing that will affect the way it "hears" knock is if you change the characteristics of the block itself, IE going with an aftermarket block. Going with solid cams or pistons with larger clearances CAN affect knock, but it will not mask knock it's the opposite, they generate noise which can be in the frequency range of the filters in the knock system and you will get false knock.

But you won't listen to any of this, keep tuning the way you tune and I'll tune the way I tune, motor was built at 150k, car has 185k with 91 octane in it 99% of the time.
 
Are you running 91 oct with 25 psi and 35 lb/min of airflow without knock? What does your timing look like? I have the same turbo (MHI B16G), lightly ported stock 2g manifold, stock 2g 7 bolt engine, full 3" exhaust with high flow cat, and 2 straight through mufflers. I am at high elevation (4500+ ft) with air density much worse. I am seeing 21 psi on cool mornings, max of 31 lb/min, and I still get knock occasionally even with a completely stock 2g timing map. I've had to pull a degree or 2 in several places to bring it down to only a degree here and there.

As requested here's my max octane map, my min is like 3-4 degrees less

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