A Real unbias look at the DSM..

[crimsondragon]

I did well in the snow last year. Goodyear Eagles that are almost bald. I actually had a bit of fun in the snow as well. No problem doing 50mph on the highway but that's as far as I'll go.

 

[JayRolla]

When did our cars get known to be the cheapest fast sports car?? It takes money, and time to make a good fast car thats reliable. Thats why our cars have bad names. People think they can turn the boost up to 20psi with no supporting mods and when it blows up they dog the car.

 

[crimsonGST]

Does the quote "Cheap, fast, reliable: Pick two" Come to mind at all? Does for me...

 

[Doubt it runs]

i own many cars. including a 10 second LS1 camaro.

i have 10k in my camaro. its nice, drives great, is reliable etc.

i have 2k in a 97 awd car. i will have to rebuild or get another motor.. after that fuel pump, turbo, injectors, ecu etc. i dont expect it to be a 10 second car, but i do expect it to be a 13 or 12 second awd car that will be fun to drive.

every car has its upsides and downsides. imo the best car is a LSx car (swaped or otherwise) with a turbo. but thats just me.

 

[Boostjunki84]

Yeah any sport tread tire will suck ass in the snow. The compound is too hard and they turn to plastic in the cold.

If you had a nice set of all season tires it would be a beast in the snow!

I drive on my RT-615s in the snow; as long as I don't punch it, it drives great. The LSD does help though. It also doesn't hurt that i've been driving in snow for years.

 

[Jeff99GS]

i own many cars. including a 10 second LS1 camaro.

i have 10k in my camaro. its nice, drives great, is reliable etc.

i have 2k in a 97 awd car. i will have to rebuild or get another motor.. after that fuel pump, turbo, injectors, ecu etc. i dont expect it to be a 10 second car, but i do expect it to be a 13 or 12 second awd car that will be fun to drive.

every car has its upsides and downsides. imo the best car is a LSx car (swaped or otherwise) with a turbo. but thats just me.

An LS1 might be a 10 second car at the Drag strip but they can't even hook up on the street.
I beat my freinds 11sec Supercharged LS1 ALL the time on the back roads! Unless we are on the Highway or at the track.....then his car beats me.

Any type of Racing is all about Power to weight ratio and TRACTION. You can have 1,000,000 Horse power, but it's usless if you can't get traction.

I drive on my RT-615s in the snow; as long as I don't punch it, it drives great. The LSD does help though. It also doesn't hurt that i've been driving in snow for years.

Yeah it can be done, but most sport/z rated tires are not the greatest in snow. Just look at the ratings on the tire for cold weather/ snow conditions to find out more info about your particular tire.

Plus....how much snow do you guys really get down there in North Carolina haha...We get DUMPED on with 10 FEET
of snow up here by Lake Erie

Here is a picture of the 10' garage door at the shop when I opened it one morning!!!!!

 

[mach4g63t]

Turbo -1k / 60trim turbo from Slowboy w/ all necessary lines - ~800 bucks
Clutch w/ install - 1100 - Fidanza 3.2 w/ Fidanza PP ~450 bucks
EProm + DSMLink - 700 Fairly average. I paid 600 for both, but got a good deal.
Gauge - 450 - Roughly 160 bucks for some Autometers that definitely do the job.
Injectors + Walbro - 400 - ~650 bucks for 1050's, 255, and a A1000 FPR
Intake Exhaust - 800 - Megan Racing Exhaust for 500 bucks and 70 bucks for a HUGE FP intake (stock IM/TB, etc are sufficient for proven high 10's)
HG HS Cams 600 + install - ~350 for 272s, 80 bucks for a Cometic.
Shocks springs tires 1.5 - 2k - Whats wrong with throwing some fresh tires on stock rims? I've commonly seen people come out of the hole on 16g's ripping all season tires to shreds and running low 12's all day long.

One of the big things you're going to notice is wrong with your listing is the fact that you keep mentioning install. It's been stated above that it would just be easier to do it yourself, but you also brought up the point of having the peace of mind that someone did it right. But A LOT of us do our own work on our own cars with our own peace of mind at the end of the day. Sure, a lot of the time we're sitting with a yard gnome and walking to work, but that learning process is what helps develop the ability to keep these cars going while knowing every aspect of what's been done to help quickly diagnose what needs to be repaired when something might break.

Also I've seen LOTS of DSM guys take their cars to 'reputable' shops around their town only to end up with headaches and inflated bills. I was once, and I never will be again.

The best part about these cars is the DIY and learning as you go. I've got ~9k in my car/setup. This includes buying the car, trashing the original 7-bolt motor, buying a 6-bolt, three different turbo setups, a full forged rebuild on the 6-bolt, and just about every other thing that you could want. Granted, it can be done for less, but I've got the 'satisfaction' of having learned while doing it.

And to top it all off, a lot of us can drive our race cars to the grocery store in the middle of the winter with unpaved, snowy roads. Show me a Mustang/V8 guy who can say all of the above? And yes, these are V8 eaters. The first day I picked up my first 95 TSi AWD, I raced a stock auto (still a V8) 99 GT Mustang from a stoplight on a 100% stock 2g (well, it had a K&N) and left him standing after the car recovered from a bogged launch.

My point is this: There are different ways to go fast for cheap, it all depends upon what you like and what your style is.

Probably the best thing said in this thread yet.

 

[99gst_racer]

The whole point of this thread is, Are these car's up to par with the same amount of money as other cars.

Above par in my opinion. That's a large reason why most of us here chose this platform.
Has anyone in the Honda world ever sunk $1800 into a Civic (including the price of the car itself) and ran 11's? I honestly don't know the answer to this question, but I would assume that it would be much, much more difficult to do that in a Honda Civic as apposed to a DSM.

Now besides AWD and a Good Block that I love.
Why are we so speical in our own minds?

Our car's have decent aerodynamics. We are able to cut weight nicely. We can make good power AND put it to the ground. Parts are abundant and affordable, and are getting cheaper every year. We can make over 1000HP on a factory block and crank. Even the older Ford and Chevy V8 blocks can't do that. Their factory rods won't handle 700 HP either.

We have cheap and efficient advantages and we use them well.

Hell even Joe B took out the AWD factor as the fastest 1g / 2g stock turbo cars are FWD...

At his level of racing, his car's weight is it's greatest advantage. That lack of 200 lbs of extra drivetrain makes a big difference. That's not to discount the function of the AWD system; it's just heavy.

 

[blazebolt]

Here are my thoughts as to why DSMs are cheaper upgrades than other cars taking the list that you provided earlier. This is taking a look at just a cost upgrade point of view.

Turbo - Our cars came stock turbo. So slapping on a new turbo requires less modifications than one that did not = less money for install kits. A T28 is a nice all around turbo that requires no modification at all for 2G's, 16G Turbos for 1G's.
Engine is also already built to handle turbos as someone else mentioned. This means that we don't need to modify the engine until we start hitting big numbers.
Clutch - No real advantage in upgrade cost
Tuning - We can use SAFC's (don't know about V8's though). In addition, we can get DSMLink for $515 that is almost as good as a standalone that costs thousands.
Fuel - 4 Cylinders so we only need to purchase 4 injectors. Also better gas mileage
Air flow - No real advantage in upgrade cost

Yes we have the same upgrade paths, but we have cheaper options and require less modifications than other cars. Feel free to add/modify this list.

 

[TSIMonsteR]

Well as far as Daily driving is concerned, its SNOWY here in Cleveland and a Fox body or anyother kind of mustangs is WORTHLESS in 1" or more of snow. I'm not sure if you get snow by you, but These AWD DSM's Kick ass in the snow/rain.

Other things that make our cars superior to a fox body are

Better gas Mileage

Better Exterior apperance....IMO

Better Interior apperance.....IMO

I'm not so sure why you think we are special in our own minds?!?!? I have never thought that...I have always thought of DSM as the underdog. I mean afterall we do have 4 less cylinders and 3.0 liters less displacement than a mustang.

 

[xxShaneOmac]

+1 to all of your post.

Alot of good reasons why one would say DSM > an other.

So I guess to pretty much conclude this thread,

In an single aspect, Speed, Power, Weight, Handling, AutoX, DD, MPG, Reliablity, Verstile.

DSM's dont hit the mark, most of the places.
But overall they have an high average score that puts them above most ifnot all car's.

Thats a good way to think.

Thanks for finally posting per the thread and not being big headed.

 

[Highbooost]

This is a great thread and I would love to weigh in.

There is a thing called dimishing return. The question is where is that point I will answer that easily.

DSM Receipe:

Per say you got a good conditioned stock 1g which isn't fast. However in one afternoon you can take that car from 15 sec to 12 with about 2K in parts. Clutch, fp, exhaust, boost controller and gauge. Total money spent, 3-5K including car.

Now throw on an AFC, FMIC, 18g, injectors, cams and you have a 11 second car, money spent.... 3000 more.

That is it, if you want more, at this point you need to change EVERYTHING, and the bill goes way up.


5.0 mustang: Stock runs 15s. You throw exhaust, heads, cams, intake. you spent 1500 and the car runs 13.

This is the point of diminishing returns for a fox body, any more power and the block/motor will fall apart. So you have to almost buy/build a motor from the get go to run 12s. At this point you are going to go all out and try for a 10 sec setup...NOS..Turbo..etc.

LS1 runs stock 13s/14s. Cam, NOS, exhaust, slicks, runs 11s, money spent $2500 plus 5K for the car. With a few other mods you can get close to the 10s.

Then you are at the diminishing point and large amounts of fab/time and money are needed.

So the easiest and cheapest is the LS1, second DSM, then 5.0. However there are other reasons previously discussed why not to buy the other cars. I don't think any one named the most important one though, I don't have a mullet??

Later Dr Turbo

 

[Boostjunki84]

it can be done, but most sport/z rated tires are not the greatest in snow. Just look at the ratings on the tire for cold weather/ snow conditions to find out more info about your particular tire.

Plus....how much snow do you guys really get down there in North Carolina haha...We get DUMPED on with 10 FEET
of snow up here by Lake Erie

Here is a picture of the 10' garage door at the shop when I opened it one morning!!!!!

I know the ratings of the tires; but when it was my DD, I had to do what I had to do.

I'd be more than happy to take that snow off your hands. We only got about 40" last winter. Send some this way if you don't mind.

 

[Doubt it runs]

An LS1 might be a 10 second car at the Drag strip but they can't even hook up on the street.
I beat my freinds 11sec Supercharged LS1 ALL the time on the back roads! Unless we are on the Highway or at the track.....then his car beats me.

on my 255 bfgoodrich drag radials on stock wheels my car dead hooks. i have out 60 footed many awd cars. one of the most recent races i dig raced a 1g dsm that was a 10 second car that launched off a 5k 2 step. i launched right with him ie door to door. im just as quick on the street or at the track.

 

[byebyev8]

The best thing about a awd car is that on the street from a dig a 12second awd car would normally beat 11sec fwd/rwd cars unless there on slicks.

 

[byebyev8]

on my 255 bfgoodrich drag radials on stock wheels my car dead hooks. i have out 60 footed many awd cars. one of the most recent races i dig raced a 1g dsm that was a 10 second car that launched off a 5k 2 step. i launched right with him ie door to door. im just as quick on the street or at the track.

Your cars auto i bet. Or has alot of suspension work. I've never had a 6sp ls1 kept up with me off the line. None were on DR's though.

 

[sl2tuner]

As for crankwalk...Every car, or anything has the potential to malfunction or break.

I'm not trying to be rude, I just don't see the point you are trying to make with this thread.

ill be the first to say that any car can break i own the master of fail when it comes to cars i have a saturn and ihave a a 93gs that i bought as a project and have never gotten around to it

 

[Black_Bullet]

There is a thing called dimishing return.

What I was refering to in my post about DSM's being good to a certain power/time and then after that point the budget to performance ratio is no longer there and a different platform will clearly begin to become more ideal...

My idea of summing it up is-

DSMs are good at everything, but NOT excellent at anything...

 

[xxShaneOmac]

This is a great thread and I would love to weigh in.

There is a thing called dimishing return. The question is where is that point I will answer that easily.

DSM Receipe:

Per say you got a good conditioned stock 1g which isn't fast. However in one afternoon you can take that car from 15 sec to 12 with about 2K in parts. Clutch, fp, exhaust, boost controller and gauge. Total money spent, 3-5K including car.

Now throw on an AFC, FMIC, 18g, injectors, cams and you have a 11 second car, money spent.... 3000 more.

That is it, if you want more, at this point you need to change EVERYTHING, and the bill goes way up.


5.0 mustang: Stock runs 15s. You throw exhaust, heads, cams, intake. you spent 1500 and the car runs 13.

This is the point of diminishing returns for a fox body, any more power and the block/motor will fall apart. So you have to almost buy/build a motor from the get go to run 12s. At this point you are going to go all out and try for a 10 sec setup...NOS..Turbo..etc.

LS1 runs stock 13s/14s. Cam, NOS, exhaust, slicks, runs 11s, money spent $2500 plus 5K for the car. With a few other mods you can get close to the 10s.

Then you are at the diminishing point and large amounts of fab/time and money are needed.

So the easiest and cheapest is the LS1, second DSM, then 5.0. However there are other reasons previously discussed why not to buy the other cars. I don't think any one named the most important one though, I don't have a mullet??

Later Dr Turbo

Great post!

I would love an LS1 as the engine is badass.
But the cars SUCK in looks and like everyone said dont par up in the other areas.

 

[Doubt it runs]

Your cars auto i bet. Or has alot of suspension work. I've never had a 6sp ls1 kept up with me off the line. None were on DR's though.

stalled auto. absolutly stock suspension. be very careful racing cars on drag radials or slicks. youll get a suprize ha.

 

[joe sobo]

shano mac,,,,,,,,,,,,i feel like you have a bitter taste of all the money you have in your car, and dont seem too happy with the outcome.
if you take 10k and have all the work done at a shop, you probably had about 2,500 in performance add-ons, and the rest was labor, as to me having 10k , i (like most others on here) would do most or all of the work ourselves or with the help of other members, have 10k in performance parts, and a bill of maybe 800-1000 $ in machine work.

 

[Thomas91169]

tell you what, i moved on from my 97 GST Spyder in '05. Got a 02 mustang GT and realized that while i love rwd, i miss boost, so naturally my next move was my current car, 03 Cobra. I believe it to be the DSM of the v8 world, comes with a factory forged motor, capable of double its output, comes boosted which means adding more boost or different boost sources (be it centrifugal sc or turbo's) is relatively easy. But with a more expensive initial buyin, every other part is expensive. Everyone talks about the pulley/swap cobras, but man, you cant just buy the pulley and tune, you gotta get idlers to increase belt wrap or else you get slippage, gotta get other boltons to help the eaton breathe, tuning isnt cheap cause theres no DSMlink, so its either a canned tune or find a good dynotuner near you and bend over.

If it means anything, im tooling around with the idea of picking up my buddies 97 GST Spyder and selling the cobra. im done with expensive everything, expensive ass car payments, etc. working on a dsm is so much easier, i know where every god damn bolt is, i could probably pull a turbo blindfolded. Everything with the cobra is an ordeal; h-pipe install is a weekend work cause of retarded bolt placement, IRS brace dont even get me started. I went to install the firewall adjuster and quadrant, took one look and said "#### that", same with after i recieved my IRS Subframe bushings, no ####ing way.

not to mention i put down 448whp/435wtq and could barely pull my buddies e16g+meth tsi awd from a roll, only reason was likely due to gearing and drivetrain loss, 6spd+rwd > 5spd+awd for freeway runs. give him a 50trim and unless we went to extreme speeds (150+) i dont think id catch him.

i dunno, i guess its about what makes you happy. between all the cars listed above ive also had two project 1g's, and i find im happiest when i am working on these cars. The first 1g needed a head rebuild due to skipped timing, the current one had a full motor rebuild due to siezed camshaft (cam guides were swapped from a donor head which lead to insta-fail). the first 1g i sold to a buddy, and the current one i will likely sell too, i got my fun out of it, now its in limbo cause all i wanted to do was rebuild the motor just to figure out how to do it, its now up to him to make the car what it can become.

im sure this post had a point, and i think i lost it. maybe it was going to go something like "if you arent happy anymore, find another car" but i can assure you; if you know dsm's inside and out, no other car compares save for a Evo. theres just so much knowledge, tech, aftermarket and end-user stuff out there for our cars

 

[crimsonGST]

tell you what, i moved on from my 97 GST Spyder in '05. Got a 02 mustang GT and realized that while i love rwd, i miss boost, so naturally my next move was my current car, 03 Cobra. I believe it to be the DSM of the v8 world, comes with a factory forged motor, capable of double its output, comes boosted which means adding more boost or different boost sources (be it centrifugal sc or turbo's) is relatively easy. But with a more expensive initial buyin, every other part is expensive. Everyone talks about the pulley/swap cobras, but man, you cant just buy the pulley and tune, you gotta get idlers to increase belt wrap or else you get slippage, gotta get other boltons to help the eaton breathe, tuning isnt cheap cause theres no DSMlink, so its either a canned tune or find a good dynotuner near you and bend over.

If it means anything, im tooling around with the idea of picking up my buddies 97 GST Spyder and selling the cobra. im done with expensive everything, expensive ass car payments, etc. working on a dsm is so much easier, i know where every god damn bolt is, i could probably pull a turbo blindfolded. Everything with the cobra is an ordeal; h-pipe install is a weekend work cause of retarded bolt placement, IRS brace dont even get me started. I went to install the firewall adjuster and quadrant, took one look and said "#### that", same with after i recieved my IRS Subframe bushings, no ####ing way.

not to mention i put down 448whp/435wtq and could barely pull my buddies e16g+meth tsi awd from a roll, only reason was likely due to gearing and drivetrain loss, 6spd+rwd > 5spd+awd for freeway runs. give him a 50trim and unless we went to extreme speeds (150+) i dont think id catch him.

i dunno, i guess its about what makes you happy. between all the cars listed above ive also had two project 1g's, and i find im happiest when i am working on these cars. The first 1g needed a head rebuild due to skipped timing, the current one had a full motor rebuild due to siezed camshaft (cam guides were swapped from a donor head which lead to insta-fail). the first 1g i sold to a buddy, and the current one i will likely sell too, i got my fun out of it, now its in limbo cause all i wanted to do was rebuild the motor just to figure out how to do it, its now up to him to make the car what it can become.

im sure this post had a point, and i think i lost it. maybe it was going to go something like "if you arent happy anymore, find another car" but i can assure you; if you know dsm's inside and out, no other car compares save for a Evo. theres just so much knowledge, tech, aftermarket and end-user stuff out there for our cars