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2G 2G engine wiring in a 2G with a 1G engine?

Dihtung Glava

Proven Member
43
8
May 16, 2022
Kranj, Europe
Hey all,

Idk if anyone is gonna read my profile so here's a quick recap for context: I have a 2G eclipse, that has a 1G's 4G63T in it (I didn't do the swap, it came like this). When I bought it it was overheating and spitting coolant so we've been working on that for the past couple of weeks.

We got the engine back together and runing recently and so it's finaly time to clean up this engine bay. The wiring is horrible and needs to be replaced asap. I went more in depth about everything that's wrong with it on my build thread so I'm not gonna write everything down again, just know that the wiring is bad. I got a recomendation on reddit to join facebook groups and find a harness there since I live in Europe and there is basicaly no cars like this anywhere near me. So I joined groups and asked if anyone had a 1G wirign harness.

I got quite a few responses, but one of the guys that answered also said that I should be looking for a 2G harness, regardless of the engine. He got a little defensive when I tried to inquire further so now I'm asking here, since this forum has always been very kind.

Are the engines realy similar enough from one generation to the other that you can use the newer car's harness on the old engine?

And since the wiring connects to the ECU, can you really use any harness? My car's stock ECU probably has the data on it to run a naturaly aspirated 4G63, since that's what it came with right? Which means they probably switched out the ECUs? Or can you just throw a different tune on the stock one?

I'll have to check what ECU I have in it but I cant imagine its the old one right? Because how would that control a turbo-ed engine if it was ment for the naturaly aspirated one?

Once I do pull the ECU, how do I tell what car/year/engine it's from?

These might all be stupid questions, but I'm more of a fabricator that anything else and as I said on other threads, this is my first project car, wiring is where my already limited skills end so please don't roast me too hard in the comments :)
 

pauleyman

DSM Wiseman
8,451
2,958
Nov 19, 2011
oklahoma city, Oklahoma
Hey all,

Idk if anyone is gonna read my profile so here's a quick recap for context: I have a 2G eclipse, that has a 1G's 4G63T in it (I didn't do the swap, it came like this). When I bought it it was overheating and spitting coolant so we've been working on that for the past couple of weeks.

We got the engine back together and runing recently and so it's finaly time to clean up this engine bay. The wiring is horrible and needs to be replaced asap. I went more in depth about everything that's wrong with it on my build thread so I'm not gonna write everything down again, just know that the wiring is bad. I got a recomendation on reddit to join facebook groups and find a harness there since I live in Europe and there is basicaly no cars like this anywhere near me. So I joined groups and asked if anyone had a 1G wirign harness.

I got quite a few responses, but one of the guys that answered also said that I should be looking for a 2G harness, regardless of the engine. He got a little defensive when I tried to inquire further so now I'm asking here, since this forum has always been very kind.

Are the engines realy similar enough from one generation to the other that you can use the newer car's harness on the old engine?
The basic engine isn't the issue. It's the sensor on the engine which can be used on either model for the most part. Those things that don't work well you can adapt. Cas and crank adapter for example. It's a known well documented swap
And since the wiring connects to the ECU, can you really use any harness? My car's stock ECU probably has the data on it to run a naturaly aspirated 4G63, since that's what it came with right? Which means they probably switched out the ECUs? Or can you just throw a different tune on the stock one?
No you cannot use any harness. Stick with what you have.
I'll have to check what ECU I have in it but I cant imagine its the old one right? Because how would that control a turbo-ed engine if it was ment for the naturaly aspirated one?
It wouldn't. You switch to turbo ecu and controls.
Once I do pull the ECU, how do I tell what car/year/engine it's from?

These might all be stupid questions, but I'm more of a fabricator that anything else and as I said on other threads, this is my first project car, wiring is where my already limited skills end so please don't roast me too hard in the comments :)
 

Dihtung Glava

Proven Member
43
8
May 16, 2022
Kranj, Europe
The basic engine isn't the issue. It's the sensor on the engine which can be used on either model for the most part. Those things that don't work well you can adapt. Cas and crank adapter for example. It's a known well documented swap

No you cannot use any harness. Stick with what you have.

It wouldn't. You switch to turbo ecu and controls.
Thanks. Are there any tell tale signs of which cas and crank adapter is which so I know what I have now?
 

Dihtung Glava

Proven Member
43
8
May 16, 2022
Kranj, Europe
Post up a picture of your engine so we can see which sensors are on it.
These are all the pics I have on my phone, let me know if you need more.

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spyderdrifter

10+ Year Contributor
5,258
742
Jul 11, 2009
Some where in, Colorado
That looks like you have a complete 1G engine in your car, and likely will also have the 1G ECU. Your best 2 options would be to A) as Paul said, keep the harness you have, & B) find another 1G harness and get it to work.

I would first locate your ECU and confirm what ECU it is. Then go on to fix the harness you have if it needs fixing. I say this because you are in EU, and your car's original wiring is going to be a bit different from what we have in the US, due to originally having a NA 4G63. Whomever did the engine swap, got it working, so just build upon that. Fix whatever wires may need fixing, lengthen or shorten others so that everything reaches their sensors. You will be using 1G sensors most likely due to it being a 1G engine and harness.
 

chrysler kid

20+ Year Contributor
2,613
579
Dec 20, 2002
Mckinney, Texas
I looked through his build and I doubt that it has a factory turbo motor in it from a 1g. I think he still has a stock 2g NA 4g63 under the hood with 1g turbo parts on it. Like maybe he has a 1g cylinder head but even then it looks like an n/a intake manifold and throttle body. I could be wrong though, the motor mount on the shock tower also looks like its using a 2g design and not the 1g design

The coolant pipe under the exhaust manifold lacking any coolant pipe passages for an oil cooler or turbo coolant are red flags to me Atleast.
 
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Dihtung Glava

Proven Member
43
8
May 16, 2022
Kranj, Europe
I looked through his build and I doubt that it has a factory turbo motor in it from a 1g. I think he still has a stock 2g NA 4g63 under the hood with 1g turbo parts on it. Like maybe he has a 1g cylinder head but even then it looks like an n/a intake manifold and throttle body. I could be wrong though, the motor mount on the shock tower also looks like its using a 2g design and not the 1g design

The coolant pipe under the exhaust manifold lacking any coolant pipe passages for an oil cooler or turbo coolant are red flags to me Atleast.
Interesting... are you saying it's the NA engine with the turbo added later, or are you saying it's just the NA engine with turbo parts but no turbo itself? Because I can assure you there 100% is a turbo. But if you are saying it's not stock with the engine I'm gonna have a breakdown because the turbo engine was like 50% of the reason I got this car and by my understanding the whole thing came from a 1g, not just the turbo.

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chrysler kid

20+ Year Contributor
2,613
579
Dec 20, 2002
Mckinney, Texas
Yeah I saw that mount, for some reason I thought it was bolted to the head but its actually 2 bolts mounted to the block, its just odd they left it on there

Yes the turbo is there, but the heat shielding is not from the turbo

Theres just a lot of parts that dont match up to just a straight motor swap from one into another
 

Dihtung Glava

Proven Member
43
8
May 16, 2022
Kranj, Europe
Yeah I saw that mount, for some reason I thought it was bolted to the head but its actually 2 bolts mounted to the block, its just odd they left it on there

Yes the turbo is there, but the heat shielding is not from the turbo

Theres just a lot of parts that dont match up to just a straight motor swap from one into another
I took the bolts out since this picture was taken, so now there's just a shelf there LOL. I can't remove the whole support, because it branches into 2 and one of them hold the entire alternator and its assembly. If I'm ever working on it again (and lets be honest, I probably will be) I'll take it out and cut the part that sticks up.

But yeah, they did a pretty shitty job, I'm not even gonna argue that but the thing runs, turbo and all...

There's a lot of parts that make it seem like that yes, one of the reasons I have so much left to do with it but as I said, as it is now, it runs and drives just fine, I'm working on preventative maintainance and replacing missing/wrong parts one at a time.
 
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Dihtung Glava

Proven Member
43
8
May 16, 2022
Kranj, Europe
Welp, found the ECU
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I don't even get my expectations up anymore, If anything I keep them level at most and yet, I am still dissapointed again and again with this shitbox.

Apparently it's from a galant which makes me worry even more about where the engine is from... I doubt they're both from the same car because there's a vein that doesn't plug into anything on the ECU and a bunch of wires are just not connected anywhere, yet everything but the AC works...

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f*** me the plan was to replace what needs replacing and then slap on a few cosmetic and a few power mods but that seems so far away now I don't even know what to do with this car.

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Alex 27 jdm

Probationary Member
4
9
Jun 26, 2019
Banja Luka, Europe
Hello from Bosina, yea you have hell an of work there... I have also 6b from Galant in my 2g but I swapped and later put turbo and all supporting pieces to him and it's working fine... PM me maybe its easier to chat in our language there are not too many of us in the Balkans.. srecno zemljace
 

Dihtung Glava

Proven Member
43
8
May 16, 2022
Kranj, Europe
Hello from Bosina, yea you have hell an of work there... I have also 6b from Galant in my 2g but I swapped and later put turbo and all supporting pieces to him and it's working fine... PM me maybe its easier to chat in our language there are not too many of us in the Balkans.. srecno zemljace
Hello, yes, nice to see another DSM fan located a little closer than the US😂 hvala na lepim recima, evo kliknem PM cim popravim šasiju zbog srne
 

Kryndon

Proven Member
910
553
Jan 10, 2014
Bulgaria, Europe
Zdravo! Here's the deal with what you got there:

That's an N/A 6 bolt engine from a 1989 Galant GTI AWD, like stated on the ECU. Te giveaways are:
The intake manifold
The gray cam cover (two part timing cover found on 6 bolts and 1Gs)
The DOT indication being on the right side casting on the head, one of the easiest giveaways for a 6 or 7 bolt
The thermostat housing and sensors
The ECU part number is MD141146 which matches only to a 1989-1989 N/A Galant GTI 4WD/4WS (E39A)

Actually quite a lot of these N/A AWD galants were sold across Central/Eastern Europe because of their AWD and effectiveness in our terrains especially during winter, so it's way more common to see those than an AWD DSM (which would have been privately imported!).

So what the previous owner did was he did you a favor by not only swapping to a stronger motor (thicker rods mostly), but he also re-pinned your ECU plugs to work with the Galant ECU. He also added the stock turbo resistor box (sitting on your firewall) so he most probably also added 450cc turbo injectors. HOWEVER, and this is a big issue, that ECU being from an N/A car has much lower limits. What I mean is, it's unsafe to keep boosting with it because it's load cell ranges do not go as far and you will not have adequate fueling for much over 0.5 bar boost I reckon. It's just too risky, especially since you 99.9% have 9.8:1 compression pistons in there, which on its own is great but boost needs to be kept lower due to it. Do you have a boost gauge? How much is it boosting up to? I can't see the stock solenoid or external boost controller so if your wastegate is routed to the turbo outlet directly then you are running wastegate pressure, anywhere between 7-9 psi (0.55bar).

Something else, he has installed stock turbo exhaust manifold + top part of shield + turbo itself. However at this point we cannot know for certain if it's a 14b, a small 16g (found on turbo galants), a big 16g (from evo 3) or a hybrid, same goes for the exhaust manifold.
If you can somehow take a picture from the FRONT of the turbo so we can read the stamped code on it, we can tell you 100% what turbo it is.

So in short: somebody installed an N/A 6 bolt in your 2G and modified your N/A 2G wiring harness (which is 3 plug by default) to work with the 3 plug galant ECU. What I suggest is to either find a stock 1G turbo ecu (3 plug again) and run that for now or find a stock 2G turbo engine harness with the 4 plugs for the ECU and then get a stock 2G turbo ecu (or one with ECMlink on it!). I am currently selling a stock 2g turbo non eprom ECU with 4 plugs so if you're interested DM me.

Hope this helps clear your situation. I think you have good potential in there already, just needs tidying up and confirming 100% what turbo you have.
 

Dihtung Glava

Proven Member
43
8
May 16, 2022
Kranj, Europe
Zdravo! Here's the deal with what you got there:

That's an N/A 6 bolt engine from a 1989 Galant GTI AWD, like stated on the ECU. Te giveaways are:
The intake manifold
The gray cam cover (two part timing cover found on 6 bolts and 1Gs)
The DOT indication being on the right side casting on the head, one of the easiest giveaways for a 6 or 7 bolt
The thermostat housing and sensors
The ECU part number is MD141146 which matches only to a 1989-1989 N/A Galant GTI 4WD/4WS (E39A)

Actually quite a lot of these N/A AWD galants were sold across Central/Eastern Europe because of their AWD and effectiveness in our terrains especially during winter, so it's way more common to see those than an AWD DSM (which would have been privately imported!).

So what the previous owner did was he did you a favor by not only swapping to a stronger motor (thicker rods mostly), but he also re-pinned your ECU plugs to work with the Galant ECU. He also added the stock turbo resistor box (sitting on your firewall) so he most probably also added 450cc turbo injectors. HOWEVER, and this is a big issue, that ECU being from an N/A car has much lower limits. What I mean is, it's unsafe to keep boosting with it because it's load cell ranges do not go as far and you will not have adequate fueling for much over 0.5 bar boost I reckon. It's just too risky, especially since you 99.9% have 9.8:1 compression pistons in there, which on its own is great but boost needs to be kept lower due to it. Do you have a boost gauge? How much is it boosting up to? I can't see the stock solenoid or external boost controller so if your wastegate is routed to the turbo outlet directly then you are running wastegate pressure, anywhere between 7-9 psi (0.55bar).

Something else, he has installed stock turbo exhaust manifold + top part of shield + turbo itself. However at this point we cannot know for certain if it's a 14b, a small 16g (found on turbo galants), a big 16g (from evo 3) or a hybrid, same goes for the exhaust manifold.
If you can somehow take a picture from the FRONT of the turbo so we can read the stamped code on it, we can tell you 100% what turbo it is.

So in short: somebody installed an N/A 6 bolt in your 2G and modified your N/A 2G wiring harness (which is 3 plug by default) to work with the 3 plug galant ECU. What I suggest is to either find a stock 1G turbo ecu (3 plug again) and run that for now or find a stock 2G turbo engine harness with the 4 plugs for the ECU and then get a stock 2G turbo ecu (or one with ECMlink on it!). I am currently selling a stock 2g turbo non eprom ECU with 4 plugs so if you're interested DM me.

Hope this helps clear your situation. I think you have good potential in there already, just needs tidying up and confirming 100% what turbo you have.
Hi, wow that's a lot of info right there, thank you for answering. I checked the turbo, here's that picture:
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I also have to ask, I've recently acquired a 2G N/A parts car I was gonna cut up to fix mine... Would any electronics from that be usable? Or do I need another ECU no question? Or should I just fix up the N/A car since that one is all stock and just use this one for parts?
 

pauleyman

DSM Wiseman
8,451
2,958
Nov 19, 2011
oklahoma city, Oklahoma
Hi, wow that's a lot of info right there, thank you for answering. I checked the turbo, here's that picture:
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I also have to ask, I've recently acquired a 2G N/A parts car I was gonna cut up to fix mine... Would any electronics from that be usable? Or do I need another ECU no question? Or should I just fix up the N/A car since that one is all stock and just use this one for parts?
Please take another picture. We need the stamped code. Tdo5h doesn't tell us enough.
 

Kryndon

Proven Member
910
553
Jan 10, 2014
Bulgaria, Europe
Spend your time and money on the car which has the least amount of rust. If the other N/A chassis is much cleaner and has papers then swap over to that. Can even roll with the 7 bolt in it, not a big deal just build it right.

But the problem remains, an N/A ECU will not get you far. Some people have insisted that you can safely turbo them while running the stock locked N/A ECU but I highly doubt that, at least the load factor will be way lower and fuel cut will happen much sooner. Unless it happens to be a 1999 black box ECU which has the 4 connectors and can be reflashed with ECUflash and tuned with EVOScan, then you got more room to play with.

And yeah, we need the full stamped code which will have many embossed numbers and two of those will be flat. That will tell us what type of td05 it is. If it's a "42", "43" then it's a small 16G. If it's a "47" then you're in luck, it would be an Evo 3 16G which is like the perfect turbo for these cars on a budget.
 

Dihtung Glava

Proven Member
43
8
May 16, 2022
Kranj, Europe
Please take another picture. We need the stamped code. Tdo5h doesn't tell us enough.
My bad, I'm dumb. Here's the only other code I could find on it and it was a bi*** to get to😂 if this isn't it, I'm gonna have to take the thing appart LOL
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Dihtung Glava

Proven Member
43
8
May 16, 2022
Kranj, Europe
Spend your time and money on the car which has the least amount of rust. If the other N/A chassis is much cleaner and has papers then swap over to that. Can even roll with the 7 bolt in it, not a big deal just build it right.

But the problem remains, an N/A ECU will not get you far. Some people have insisted that you can safely turbo them while running the stock locked N/A ECU but I highly doubt that, at least the load factor will be way lower and fuel cut will happen much sooner. Unless it happens to be a 1999 black box ECU which has the 4 connectors and can be reflashed with ECUflash and tuned with EVOScan, then you got more room to play with.

And yeah, we need the full stamped code which will have many embossed numbers and two of those will be flat. That will tell us what type of td05 it is. If it's a "42", "43" then it's a small 16G. If it's a "47" then you're in luck, it would be an Evo 3 16G which is like the perfect turbo for these cars on a budget.
Yeah nah, the new car's got way more rust. Ok, so the ECU is useless as well, good to know. At least I can use the "physical" parts off of the car like I planned. Might actualy have to use the new engine too since mine just now decided to start mixing coolant and oil?!!?
 

Kryndon

Proven Member
910
553
Jan 10, 2014
Bulgaria, Europe
Shit, well the number that most closely matches what I can barely see from your pic is 49178-01030 which is a TD05-14B small turbo. It's still way better than the T25 and you can boost this lil turbo happily, so not a big worry there.

Also about the oil water mixing, how exactly are you diagnosing that? The current season around our parts makes cars produce quite a bit of condensation inside the engine so it may not be unusual to see a bit of milky bubbles/froth at the top of your oil cap if the car sat for a few days after running it hard. But if you're seeing creamy stuff inside your radiator then yeah not good. There are other ways to tell of course but this one comes to mind.
 

Dihtung Glava

Proven Member
43
8
May 16, 2022
Kranj, Europe
Shit, well the number that most closely matches what I can barely see from your pic is 49178-01030 which is a TD05-14B small turbo. It's still way better than the T25 and you can boost this lil turbo happily, so not a big worry there.

Also about the oil water mixing, how exactly are you diagnosing that? The current season around our parts makes cars produce quite a bit of condensation inside the engine so it may not be unusual to see a bit of milky bubbles/froth at the top of your oil cap if the car sat for a few days after running it hard. But if you're seeing creamy stuff inside your radiator then yeah not good. There are other ways to tell of course but this one comes to mind.
Well at least I can't be dissapointed since I don't have any high expectations for this car anymore hahaha. Any idea where it could've came from?

Well the car has been sitting since the crash in october... I did start it up a couple of times just to move it, but no driving. Last week I opened the radiator cap just to check nothing's frozen yet and It was low on coolant but the inside of the pipe was slimy as hell. Figured it was engine oil right away. As for the diagnosis - we did the headgasket back when I got the car, that's documented on my page so I'm counting that out. My brother did tighten the oil cooler nut mad tight when the filter kept coming loose so I was hoping with every cell in my body that the cooler cracked, but tonight I ran my garden hose through it and it stayed dry so, sadly, It's looking like the head might be cracked... what's you guys' take?
 

pauleyman

DSM Wiseman
8,451
2,958
Nov 19, 2011
oklahoma city, Oklahoma
You're making alot of assumptions. What does the oil and coolant look like? Have you drained either?
 

Dihtung Glava

Proven Member
43
8
May 16, 2022
Kranj, Europe
You're making alot of assumptions. What does the oil and coolant look like? Have you drained either?
Have not drained either yet, I'll probably do it sometime this week or a little later when I start putting parts from the new car in but I did go back and test the oil cooler again and I think we have a winner. My brother must have tightened it too hard when we were changing the oil. Very happy it's not the engine again :) So if anyone has the 1g oil cooler sandwich plate for sale, I would love to have it.
 

Dihtung Glava

Proven Member
43
8
May 16, 2022
Kranj, Europe
Well since this post has gotten some interaction and I've already brought up the oil cooler problem, I figured I might as well reply here again so I'm not just starting new threads again... I've been looking for a new oil cooler since I found mine's cracked, but those things are nowhere to be found. I'm talking about the one that goes between the filter and filter housing that's water cooled... It's looking like I might have to resort to an external cooler, what do you guys think? Also, follow up question to that - what's the deal with oil filter housings on these engines? There's like 3 different variants of the same part? Everyone I see here connects their oil coolers at the two ports on the side of the filter housing, but mine doesn't have those, just three facing the front, one of which already has a sensor in it so idk where I would even connect the oil cooler. Do you have to get an adaptor sandwich plate for these types of housings or what? Also seen people connecting the oil for the turbo to the filter housing... mine has a turbo but it's definitely not getting oil from here, there's no other ports on this housing.
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Kryndon

Proven Member
910
553
Jan 10, 2014
Bulgaria, Europe
It's not a mandatory part to have. Some cars are specced with it, some are without. Even though the OEM sandwich plate is labeled as "Oil Cooler", it plays two roles and not so much to "cool" the oil. In general your water and oil temps run similar, oil is usually a bit higher, so if water is 95C, oil is around 100-105C normally. That sandwich plate does two things. It allows your oil to more closely match the water temp, but it also helps the water itself warm up faster especially during cold start ups. This is important because our FIAVs are controlled by water temperature, so the quicker the water warms up, the quicker the fast idle valve will open shut off. This is important for emissions hence why some cars have it. The sandwich plate also helps take some of the heat away from the heated oil returning from the turbocharger.

On a stock T25 setup, the oil feed comes from that second plug (in the middle) seen in your picture. It goes through a hard line up to the oil inlet on the Garrett T25.
On your 14b turbo right now, the stock oil feed comes from the head above the thermostat housing.

If you REALLY want to cool your oil down below 100C, you need to run an actual air cooler mounted in the front, and using an external sandwich plate in place of your cracked one. However, based on your location and climate, it really doesn't get all that hot in the summer, but does get really cold during winter. So if anything, I would personally not run an external cooler at all and avoid additional oil-related systems. THIS IS JUST MY OPINION!!! Cars that really benefit from additional oil cooling are those ran in extremely hot climates and under constant high loads and RPMs, i.e track cars.

P.S, if you end up removing the current cracked sandwich plate, you will need to also replace the inner threaded barb fitting with the shorter one, which you may be able to order new or find from a standard OFH. I may actually have a spare one, will check.
 
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