2g 2.4L 4g64 7-bolt Bottom End Swap.

[98TsiAWD]

Before we get into this, Please only post if you have serious input on the subject. I would like to talk about 7 bolt 4g64's ONLY. This way there isnt confusion. If anyone wants to post up a thread about the 6 bolt for 1g's feel free.
I am trying to do all the research on this topic I can. I feel that swapping in the 7 bolt 4g64 bottom end into a 2g is by far better than the 6 bolt 4g63 swap if you suffer from crankwalk.
why? Because the build up of both motors cost about the same, the 4g64 7 bolt will bolt in alot easier than the 6 bolt, and you will have .4 more liters of displacement=more torque.
Obviously with the more torque this will more than likely eat up clutches/trannies, etc. So keep that in mind before you decide to do this.
The 2g 7 bolt 4g63T rods are identical to the 4g64 7 bolt rods, so I have read, is this true?

What parts/work that are needed for the swap?
Here is what I have came up with.

1. 94-98 Galant 4g64 Block, can be a SOHC or DOHC, or 96-99 Eclipse Spyder NT 4g64 Block. The SOHC will need 5 oil passages plugged, the DOHC will not. However the DOHC block is hard to find, only came in a 94 Galant GS DOHC. These is a pic below of the 5 holes that would need to be plugged on the SOHC block, how do you plug these?

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2. 94 Galant GS DOHC Camshaft Sprockets

3. 94 Galant GS DOHC Head Gasket (My concern with this is. Can this headgasket hold boost? Say 30psi?) Where can we get a stronger head gasket that will work?

4. 94 Galant GS DOHC Timing Belt/Tensioner (63 and 64 7 bolt tensioner's are the same, Timing belts are NOT)

5. Machine the 4g64 block to put in the 4g63 oil squirters

6. Custom or SS turbo oil drain line, the 4g64 has a taller deckheight which in turn lift the turbo up higher towards teh hood away from the oilpan. So you need a longer drain line. You can just but out the flexible section out of the OEM and put in a hose of your own clamped on.

7. The 1g or 2g head will work, of course if using a 1g head you have to do all the common things of swapping a 1g head onto a 2g. The headstuds for a 4g63 will work perfect still.

8. Remove the Balance Shafts of course, same procedure/parts as doing it on a 4g63 block.

9. On DSMtalk they speak of using a specific motor mount, do I use the 4g63 mount or the 4g64?

10. 2g Aftermarket Rods/stock 4g64 crankshaft

11. Wiesco Pistons Part Number K548M (9.3:1), is there any others available? I want 8.7 or 9:1 compression.

Is there anything else needed?

Now PLEASE keep this 2g 7 bolt specific ONLY. If you want to talk about the 6 bolt start another thread to save the confusion.

 

[treimche]

The 2g 7 bolt 4g63T rods are identical to the 4g64 7 bolt rods, so I have read, is this true?

Yup this sure is true from everything I have read as well.

3. 94 Galant GS DOHC Head Gasket (My concern with this is. Can this headgasket hold boost? Say 30psi?) Where can we get a stronger head gasket that will work?

Get in touch with www.powderblastco.com. They have or can get the proper gasket for you. I believe they use the Cometic metal head gaskets.

5. Machine the 4g64 block to put in the 4g63 oil squirters

You don't HAVE to do this, as you know. Some people like them, some don't.

6. Custom or SS turbo oil drain line

I'm actually gonna try to just use a stock oil drain and see if I can stretch mine enough to use that. I did that when I had a different turbo on my 2G and it stretched out quite a bit and worked perfectly.

9. On DSMtalk they speak of using a specific motor mount, do I use the 4g63 mount or the 4g64?

I don't remember reading that? I thought you just use the 2G mounts?

I've got the part numbers for the cam gears and timing belt if you or anyone needs them.

 

[DSM mechanix]

about the motor mounts, it was discused on DSMtalk. If i recall, they sayed that both will work, and that the 2g '63 mounts are perfered because of their strength (the '64 mounts were never ment for lots of power from the engine).

One thing I still dont fully understand even after slieght discution on DSMtalk, is are Valve releifs needed

 

[talonted_one]

Originally posted by DSM mechanix
about the motor mounts, it was discused on DSMtalk. If i recall, they sayed that both will work, and that the 2g '63 mounts are perfered because of their strength (the '64 mounts were never ment for lots of power from the engine).

One thing I still dont fully understand even after slieght discution on DSMtalk, is are Valve releifs needed

from what I gather valve reliefs are only needed in the 2.3 stroker. since you will be using the stock block with stock crank, the piston at TDC won't be any higher than normal.

**magnus also sells the cometic metal head gaskets also.


Does anyone know how to tell the difference between the DOHC block from the SOHC block. the one I have is DOHC just wanted to know for further knowledge.

 

[98TsiAWD]

Originally posted by talonted_one


from what I gather valve reliefs are only needed in the 2.3 stroker. since you will be using the stock block with stock crank, the piston at TDC won't be any higher than normal.

**magnus also sells the cometic metal head gaskets also.


Does anyone know how to tell the difference between the DOHC block from the SOHC block. the one I have is DOHC just wanted to know for further knowledge.

The DOHC block will not have those 5 holes you need to fill in the pic I have above. The SOHC will have the holes.

 

[98TsiAWD]

Originally posted by DSM mechanix
about the motor mounts, it was discused on DSMtalk. If i recall, they sayed that both will work, and that the 2g '63 mounts are perfered because of their strength (the '64 mounts were never ment for lots of power from the engine).

One thing I still dont fully understand even after slieght discution on DSMtalk, is are Valve releifs needed

Yeah the 63 mount is obviously stronger, but some say it doesnt fit properly?

As car as valve reliefs, I think the custom pistons you can get from a few different vendors are made to accomadate for the valve clearance. I THINK.

 

[98TsiAWD]

quote:
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5. Machine the 4g64 block to put in the 4g63 oil squirters
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You don't HAVE to do this, as you know. Some people like them, some don't.

But if I dont put in the oil squirters, which I dont really want to. I need to do something to keep the piston temp down correct? So I can get the pistons ceramic coated, but then since they are forged they will no longer expand as much as normal so I will need less clearance in the cylinders. How much less?

 

[mrmadmax]

Originally posted by 98TsiAWD

...

The SOHC will need 5 oil passages plugged, the DOHC will not. However the DOHC block is hard to find, only came in a 94 Galant GS DOHC. These is [sic] a pic below of the 5 holes that would need to be plugged on the SOHC block, how do you plug these?
...

That would be a snap! Have your machinist bore the holes out to the next larger size core plug (freeze plug). Tell them to only bore the hole down far enough so that the plug is below the deck surface. That way, the plug will stop at the step when you install it.

 

[98TsiAWD]

Originally posted by mrmadmax


That would be a snap! Have your machinist bore the holes out to the next larger size core plug (freeze plug). Tell them to only bore the hole down far enough so that the plug is below the deck surface. That way, the plug will stop at the step when you install it.

So do you just plug them on the deck surface? you dont have to plug them down below somewhere also?

 

[98TsiAWD]

Would this engine work? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2524021790&category=41490

I know all I need off it is the block and crank, but is the "industrial" engine the same block/crank?

 

[mrmadmax]

Originally posted by 98TsiAWD


So do you just plug them on the deck surface? you dont have to plug them down below somewhere also?

Yeah you can just plug them right at the deck surface. The bottom side just runs down to the crankcase, right?

We used to install screw in plugs in the decks of 400 cubic inch Chevy motors, but that was in the water jacket. I don't think that is necessary here, because the crankcase doesn't see that much pressure.

Originally posted by 98TsiAWD


But if I dont put in the oil squirters, which I dont really want to. I need to do something to keep the piston temp down correct? So I can get the pistons ceramic coated, but then since they are forged they will no longer expand as much as normal so I will need less clearance in the cylinders. How much less?

Keep in mind that a forged piston expands MORE than a cast piston, due to it's much lower silicon content. For this reason you need MORE clearance, not less. Take a look at this thread Here

 

[98TsiAWD]

Originally posted by mrmadmax


Yeah you can just plug them right at the deck surface. The bottom side just runs down to the crankcase, right?

We used to install screw in plugs in the decks of 400 cubic inch Chevy motors, but that was in the water jacket. I don't think that is necessary here, because the crankcase doesn't see that much pressure.



Keep in mind that a forged piston expands MORE than a cast piston, due to it's much lower silicon content. For this reason you need MORE clearance, not less. Take a look at this thread Here

I know that the forged expands more, so you have to warm the car up for ~10 minutes to avoid piston slap. But since they would be ceramic coated they would not expand as much, so how much less clearance is needing to accomadate for the ceramic coating?

 

[mrmadmax]

Originally posted by 98TsiAWD


I know that the forged expands more, so you have to warm the car up for ~10 minutes to avoid piston slap. But since they would be ceramic coated they would not expand as much, so how much less clearance is needing to accomadate for the ceramic coating?

I would call Wiseco and ask them for their recomendations on coated piston clearances. Also, you might contact Swain Technology (ceramic coating company) for their recomendations as well. I have only done a couple of engines with piston coatings, and I just kept the full recomended clearance to be safe.
You can find Swain's phone number at their website Here

 

[P8ntBalla]

Originally posted by 98TsiAWD


As car as valve reliefs, I think the custom pistons you can get from a few different vendors are made to accomadate for the valve clearance. I THINK.

Couldnt you just get your pistons fly-cut?

 

[98TsiAWD]

Originally posted by P8ntBalla


Couldnt you just get your pistons fly-cut?

That will mess with the compression ratio.

 

[P8ntBalla]

Doesn't the compression ratio on the 4G64 already need to drop? I would imagine that if you could mathematically figure out how much fly-cutting the pistons would drop the comp. ratio you could use the drop to your advantage.

 

[98TsiAWD]

Originally posted by P8ntBalla
Doesn't the compression ratio on the 4G64 already need to drop? I would imagine that if you could mathematically figure out how much fly-cutting the pistons would drop the comp. ratio you could use the drop to your advantage.

Yes, so could I run the stock 4g64 block/crank, aftermarket 2g rods, then aftermarket forged pistons for a 4g64 galant SOHC and get them "fly-cut" Would I want to get like 9.5:1 pistons? I want to end up with around a 9:1 compression. How much does cuttin valve reliefs into the pistons lower compression?

BTW, Barnonemotorsports can get me Wiesco pistons that will work with the 63/64 hybrid motor for $475 in whatever compression I want. So that is probly more cost effective than "fly-cutting" other pistons.

 

[mrmadmax]

Originally posted by 98TsiAWD


Yes, so could I run the stock 4g64 block/crank, aftermarket 2g rods, then aftermarket forged pistons for a 4g64 galant SOHC and get them "fly-cut" Would I want to get like 9.5:1 pistons? I want to end up with around a 9:1 compression. How much does cuttin valve reliefs into the pistons lower compression?

BTW, Barnonemotorsports can get me Wiesco pistons that will work with the 63/64 hybrid motor for $475 in whatever compression I want. So that is probly more cost effective than "fly-cutting" other pistons.

I would go with the custom pistons. Don't just tell them the CR that you want, but rather do the research yourself and calculate it all. If you don't know how, google search online for instructions, or use a Java based calculator like the one HERE

I would be sure to tell them that you want the reliefs to work with the head you are using, which is why I call Wiseco direct. That way the dimensions don't get messed up when they order the piston. Wiseco can make you a custom 4G64 piston, with the reliefs used in the 4G63 pistons (to match the head), and the correct dish volume to work with the bore, stroke, deck, chamber volume, reliefs, etc.; so you get the CR that you want.

 

[98TsiAWD]

Originally posted by mrmadmax


I would go with the custom pistons. Don't just tell them the CR that you want, but rather do the research yourself and calculate it all. If you don't know how, google search online for instructions, or use a Java based calculator like the one HERE

I would be sure to tell them that you want the reliefs to work with the head you are using, which is why I call Wiseco direct. That way the dimensions don't get messed up when they order the piston. Wiseco can make you a custom 4G64 piston, with the reliefs used in the 4G63 pistons (to match the head), and the correct dish volume to work with the bore, stroke, deck, chamber volume, reliefs, etc.; so you get the CR that you want.

I will do that then, you dont happen to have Wiesco's phone number do you? Thanks for all the help.

 

[98TsiAWD]

Originally posted by mrmadmax


I would go with the custom pistons. Don't just tell them the CR that you want, but rather do the research yourself and calculate it all. If you don't know how, google search online for instructions, or use a Java based calculator like the one HERE

I would be sure to tell them that you want the reliefs to work with the head you are using, which is why I call Wiseco direct. That way the dimensions don't get messed up when they order the piston. Wiseco can make you a custom 4G64 piston, with the reliefs used in the 4G63 pistons (to match the head), and the correct dish volume to work with the bore, stroke, deck, chamber volume, reliefs, etc.; so you get the CR that you want.

I will do that then, you dont happen to have Wiesco's phone number do you? Thanks for all the help.

 

[mrmadmax]

Originally posted by 98TsiAWD


I will do that then, you dont happen to have Wiesco's phone number do you? Thanks for all the help.

Yeah, it's (440) 951-6600.

One more thing, I was just looking at their 2003 catalog. It seems they have a part number for a 4G64 with a 4G63 head, and your choice of 21 or 22 mm pins. I don't recall seeing this before, but it should be a nice starting point for you, just tell them the custom dish size you need to get the CR you want. You can view the Mitsu piston catalog HERE
Or, you can link to it from www.wiseco.com

Take lots of pictures, and maybe you could post an article when you finish so others can build up 4G64 hybrids.... Just a thought.

 

[98TsiAWD]

Originally posted by mrmadmax


Yeah, it's (440) 951-6600.

One more thing, I was just looking at their 2003 catalog. It seems they have a part number for a 4G64 with a 4G63 head, and your choice of 21 or 22 mm pins. I don't recall seeing this before, but it should be a nice starting point for you, just tell them the custom dish size you need to get the CR you want. You can view the Mitsu piston catalog HERE
Or, you can link to it from www.wiseco.com

Take lots of pictures, and maybe you could post an article when you finish so others can build up 4G64 hybrids.... Just a thought.

Yeah Ill try to take lots of pics to document it all. Now I just need to figure out what some of those things mean on that compression calculator link you gave me. Im new to the engine building stuff.

 

[mrmadmax]

Originally posted by 98TsiAWD


Yeah Ill try to take lots of pics to document it all. Now I just need to figure out what some of those things mean on that compression calculator link you gave me. Im new to the engine building stuff.

I'll take a guess that the confusing ones are the top ring land height and the deck height.

The Top ring land height is the distance from the top of the piston to the top of the first piston ring (usually around 0.250 inches).

The Deck height is the distance from the top of the cylinder block to the top of the piston at TDC. Be carefull here, because a piston that sticks up out of the block will be a negative number, and down into the cylinder will be positive. You want this number to be as close to zero as possible when you build the engine. More than 0.025" down into the block and you lose turbulence and are more susceptable to knock; If you stick out more than 0.008", you run the risk of the piston hitting the head (in general).

 

[Big Woo]

Plugging the deck holes is a fairly simple operation. Most racing engine machine shops could do this procedure for you.

It is common on small block chevy engines, and others to tap some of the deck holes and install plugs. After this is done the deck surface is usually resurfaced. This is done to increase the deck stiffness.

 

[98TsiAWD]

Originally posted by Big Woo
Plugging the deck holes is a fairly simple operation. Most racing engine machine shops could do this procedure for you.

It is common on small block chevy engines, and others to tap some of the deck holes and install plugs. After this is done the deck surface is usually resurfaced. This is done to increase the deck stiffness.

Alright, well supposedly the guy here in town at the carquest machine shop is the best machinist within the 4 surrounding states. So Im happy about that. I will need to go talk with him as soon as my block gets here. I found a 94 galant DOHC longblcok for $300 shipped.