1G AWD with a solid rear axle

[nightracer91]

So with a Holset build in the works, I have been thinking driveline in the back of my mind. With my second 3 bolt rear end in the car, I think I have decided to do something out of the ordinary and build my AWD with a solid rear axle. I see many Ford 9's and 8.8s and even one Toyota but I was handed an axle assembly the other day that I think might be pretty cool to try and make work. It is out of a late 80s to early 90s 4WD Mighty Max or Montero. It has a hub to hub width of 55" which I believe is slightly too narrow compared to the 1G width. Someone please correct me here. However, with a 3.55 option available (out of a 2WD Mighty Max) and a pinion flange that fits directly to the factory 1G driveshaft rear flange. Why not see if I can make it work? One down side is the 6-lug axles but those can be machined and redrilled for the 5-bolt pattern. Not to mention, the bearing set up on these axles is very smart in regards to serviceability and overall funtionality. I am curious why this has never been brought up or attempted before? Is there something I am missing that is going to keep this set up from working? Obviously 4-linking the axle is the only way to go. Of course somebody will think I am wasting my time, or I can start looking into some Ford axles as they are quite plentiful in my area (all these mudding 4-wheeling trucks rolling around). I just think it would be neat to see a Mitsu still having all Mitsu parts

 

[96awd]

No need really for a solid rear until you're making huge power 800awhp+.

Just do a 4 bolt swap and depending on your power, add the DSS Axle bar upgrade.

But I should ask, what Holset? What does your build consist of?

 

[turboking15]

Overkill? maybe. But why not, a 4 bolt rear, dss axles, etc will cost around the same if not more than doing a live axle swap. If he does the live axle swap that just makes the car ready for the future if he ever does go for more power. I have a thread started in an attempt to gather as much info about live axle swaps as possibly so if you do follow through with this please post your findings in there as i would love to add some 1g info and other rear end options, as well as generate some good talk about suspension setups / geometry.

Here is the thread:
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/drivetrain-tech/417725-solid-rear-axles.html

 

[96awd]

To do a live solid axle, you're looking at a cost of $4,000+. A stock 4 bolt rear end with just DSS axle bar upgrade ($500) will be safe and has seen high 9 second passes without any problems. Only thing to really worry about then is the X-Case. A 4 bolt is very strong from the box and will do 10's with no problems but that's why I ended my first post with his build plan and what is expected out of it.

 

[turboking15]

I would assume that your 4k cost for that is having someone else do the work? I do all my own work so i generally look at the cost of things for me to do them, and thus far ive come up with about 6-700 to do the 8.8 rear end in my car. But this is also me doing all the fab work and welding.

If paying someone else for the conversion then yes it will be a bit more costly, but as you eluded to in your post alot of it comes down to what his setup, plans, and goals for the car are.

 

[nightracer91]

I would never pay anybody to do anything to my car. I have built everything on my car including the evo geared trans. I plan on fabricating everything needed. The Holset build will be done well before this axle build. This is intended more for the next turbo build which will be well into the 9s maybe lower. I am not asking if I should put in a live axle, I am regardless. I am wanting to know if anybody has ever considered using the Mighty Max axle assembly.

 

[nightracer91]

Is anybody understanding what I'm asking? I have the knowledge, this is not my first race car. I simply asking if anybody has thought of doing it.

 

[99gst_racer]

It's been done plenty of times.

Skip the MM rearend. You need something that has many available ring and pinion sets so that you can get the proper ratio (3.55). I'd suggest a 9" or even an 8.8 if you can find a gear for it.

 

[91stocker]

I simply asking if anybody has thought of doing it.

Ford 8.8 seems like the best option honestly. Some have the right gear ratio and lsd factory. Plus its light, can handle some power, and best of all its cheap.

 

[jrohner]

Ford 8.8 seems like the best option honestly. Some have the right gear ratio and lsd factory. Plus its light, can handle some power, and best of all its cheap.

It's also said to be the right width. It's the perfect one to go with.

 

[91stocker]

It's also said to be the right width. It's the perfect one to go with.

Good catch, thats another great point.

 

[Bricktop]

Here is my 2 cents. If you know how to weld there is no way a solid rear swap will cost above 3k. In my opinion the 8.8 is the best candidate for the following reasons.
1 Plentiful- Many Explorers came with them from the factory. All Explorer 8.8s are 31 spline and more often than not LSD equipped.
2 Aftermarket support out the bum. Lockers, spools, axles, girdles
3 Same width and bolt pattern already.
4 Can take alot of abuse, take a look at some Mustangs that run it.
5 Factory 11 inch disc brakes - add a set of Cobra 13 inchers up front and have a killer setup CHEAP
6 With the Holset you are plannin to run you might get tired of busting 5 speeds, and you decide to throw an Automatic in it. No problem, take the 3.55 ring and pinion out and $200 later put a 3.31 in it.
Now , this is all my opinion. But, I think you will be happy with the 8.8
with the width issue of the MM rear and the redrilling for bolt pattern. And only the u joint on the pinion to worry about with the 8.8 the choice is easy.

$150 U pull 8.8 rear with 3.55's. many came with 3.55's factory
$200 for a Four link (Summit)
$150 for Rod ends
$80 for four link crossmember
$40 for beer your buddy drinks who knows how to weld if you don't.
$3,000

 

[nightracer91]

Thank you those who can get their point across without making statements about someone's abilities for whom they do not know.

This is all I was asking and I understand that the Mighty Max axle may not be the strongest but that is why I wanted to know if anybody had thought/tried it. My biggest concern was the width. I remeasured the MM axle and it comes out to 55.5" from hub face to hub face. Is a 1G the same track width as the 2g's which appears to be ~59.5" rotor face to rotor face". I am not opposing the Ford 8.8 build but if I could not have to buy and axle assembly and use the one I was given, I figured why not. And for those who don't know, a 3.55 is available for the MM axle, it is in the 2WD MM. Also, being in engineering, I was going to machine a spool to install in the MM axle, btw there are even air lockers out for these axles. The bolt pattern was something I could handle changing but is alot of work.

Before receiving this axle, I was looking at building a 9" since all the 4x4 gurus I work with have plenty of parts laying around. If I truely am wasting my time with this MM axle then I will probably sell it to one of our local guys who is building a MM drag truck, I'm sure the 3.91's will be better than the 3.55's in it now

Again thank those of you who are able to have a genuine debate without targeting someone's personal abilities. Paul V, jrohner, and Bricktop (whom I've never met ) thank you guys for bringing legit arguements to the table that show your true knowledge. I am going to do a little more investigating of the MM axle but I already sent a text to one of my co-workers about the 9" pig I know he was sitting in his garage that just needs new bearings

 

[99gst_racer]

I'm not too familiar with the MM rearend, but I'd be willing to bet there's not much available in the aftermarket in the way of stornger ring and pinion sets (which is a big advantage for a Ford rearend). Also, what is the diameter of the MM axles? I wonder if they're strong enough to take a beating? I can attest that stronger aftermarket 8.8" and 9" axles are readily available and reasonably affordable, which very well could be another big advantage with going with a Ford rear.

I'd just hate to see you build around a rearend that isn't as strong as you'd need it to be and one that lacks aftermarket support.


A buddy of mine ran his AWD 2G for a couple seasons with a 9" rearend. It's RWD now, and with the same rearend. Here's a few pics if you're interested: http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/custom-fabrication/381469-another-rwd-2g.html

 

[nightracer91]

I read about that build the other night when I was looking for info on how many 1g's have done solid rear axles. Definately insane! The MM ring is about 7.5" which is a bit undersized, my thoughts were that for a build that is pushing only about 600 at the crank, that would have been sufficient. However, knowing that the build will get crazier, I might as well just build the rear end to take much more and know that it will survive. In regards to the stronger sets, your right there is nothing other than just Cryo treating the factory sets. I have connections with an engineer at Eaton, and was considering having him try his hand to building a stronger set for myself but it seems like running a 9" like I was originally looking into is going to be a better route.

 

[99gst_racer]

Do you know the hub to hub measurement of the rear of a 1G?

 

[nightracer91]

I'm going to measure that later today but I am pretty positive the MM axle is more narrow than the factory track width.

Also, is there an availablility of 5x114.3 bolt pattern hubs for the 9"? Im trying to do some research now to see if there are any.

 

[GDNF2ET]

Here is a bolt on kit for an RX-7..It might have some useful information...
GrannysSpeedShop.com

 

[99gst_racer]

I'm going to measure that later today but I am pretty positive the MM axle is more narrow than the factory track width.

It seems that the 8.8's from the Explorers are a few inches shorter than a 2G, so that might also be a good option for you if you're on a budget and looking for something that doesn't need alot of modifying.

Also, is there an availablility of 5x114.3 bolt pattern hubs for the 9"? Im trying to do some research now to see if there are any.

5x114.3 = 5x4.5". Which is a very common bolt pattern for most 5-lug Fords. You can find those axles pretty easily for the 8.8" and the 9".

 

[99gst_racer]

Here is a bolt on kit for an RX-7..It might have some useful information...
GrannysSpeedShop.com

Wow, that's awesome! I wish I had the means to build something like that for DSMs.

 

[nightracer91]

It seems that the 8.8's from the Explorers are a few inches shorter than a 2G, so that might also be a good option for you if you're on a budget and looking for something that doesn't need alot of modifying.

Really, because some of the other info I found (on this site) was that the 8.8 and 2g's have the same track width... hmm... Looks like I really need to pull out the tape measure.

5x114.3 = 5x4.5". Which is a very common bolt pattern for most 5-lug Fords. You can find those axles pretty easily for the 8.8" and the 9".

Available in any width axles or is that limited to the more narrow axled vehicles?

 

[99gst_racer]

Really, because some of the other info I found (on this site) was that the 8.8 and 2g's have the same track width... hmm... Looks like I really need to pull out the tape measure.

Yup, definitely measure.
I was basing that off of what was said in this thread.

Available in any width axles or is that limited to the more narrow axled vehicles?

As far as aftermarket axles go, the shelf stock selection is plentiful, and anything else is doable via custom order. But 4.5" bolt pattern is one of the most common and most popular available.

As far as stock stuff goes, it would greatly depend on year, make, and model. I'm sure there are many varying lengths (and maybe even bolt patterns) being that they used that rearend on many different vehicles over the past 30 years.

 

[nightracer91]

So I am wanting to keep the AWD with the solid axle, with the 9" what would I have to do to use the AWD driveshaft set up with that diff. Is there a simple u-joint change or am I going to have to modify the entire end of the driveshft to have to use the larger Ford U-joint?

 

[99gst_racer]

You're going to need an aftermarket driveshaft. Or heavily modify the factory one. It would need to be shortened and the end would need to be completely removed and replaced with an end to allow the use of a regular 1310 or 1350 series u-joint so that it can bolt up to the Ford pinion yoke.

You might want to take advantage of the opportunity to save some weight and go aftermarket, 1-piece, aluminum or carbon fiber.

 

[nightracer91]

Correct me if I am wrong, but aren't the angles and the linear measurement from the t-case to the axle to extreme to run a true 1 piece driveshaft? Or is that just in the case of the IRS diff and rear exiting exhaust (I will be running side exit for this build).

My question is, I guess, what are those with the 8.8's doing who are still AWD?