I Doubt that it is the cas or the ECU. Relax a bit man I am working with you and we are making progress. The next step is to check all the wiring from the transistor pack to the coils. I suspect that it is in this wiring or the transistor pack itself. I am not exactly sure what signals are being sent but when the ECU tells the transistor pact to fire plug 1 it fires 1 and 4. The same is true for 3&2. Now when the next signal is sent nothing is happening...

I don't have wiring diagrams for this wiring with me (they are like 100 miles away I NEED to have them shipped from the guy using them). Check the wiring I know you know how

well just for kicks I swapped plugs 3 & 4 with eachother to see if I could trick it.. being that 1 & 4 are firing the same and 2 & 3 are firing the same. LoL didn't do a damn thing. also since yesterday the car will not even act as if it want's to start... it use to act like it was going to start before. I can get it to start with starter fluid but it acts as though the maf is plugged in... you know it will only run for about 3 sec then die.?????? ! this car is has issues!.

Check all your grounds. plugs 1+4, and 2+3 fire together. This car uses the Dual polarity waisted spark method. Also use a degree wheel and make sure the Tdc mark really is Tdc. then check ur cams and make sure they are correct. if all that is good then it is a fuel problem and by th way it sounds there is a problem in the wireing for the MAFS. Make sure all the wires going to it have 0 ohms or close to it (.1 or less) resistance. check all your grounds. It is mostlikly not your cams as when i put my car together i had the intake cam like 2 teeth off and it ran fine except for the idle was really rough. Make sure your injectors are good.

all in all though it has to be fuel related. Think no start, add starting fluid (fuel), magically it starts. hmmmm. must not be getting fuel.
Good luck

Originally posted by bastarddsm
Check all your grounds. plugs 1+4, and 2+3 fire together. This car uses the Dual polarity waisted spark method. Also use a degree wheel and make sure the Tdc mark really is Tdc. then check ur cams and make sure they are correct. if all that is good then it is a fuel problem and by th way it sounds there is a problem in the wireing for the MAFS. Make sure all the wires going to it have 0 ohms or close to it (.1 or less) resistance. check all your grounds. It is mostlikly not your cams as when i put my car together i had the intake cam like 2 teeth off and it ran fine except for the idle was really rough. Make sure your injectors are good.

all in all though it has to be fuel related. Think no start, add starting fluid (fuel), magically it starts. hmmmm. must not be getting fuel.
Good luck

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Good call on the ignition system i totally forgot about that.

Ya probably wern't prive to our conversation that the car does not fire when it is suppose to for plugs 2 and 4. It totally misses those pulses....at least i think it does. Kenny are you absolutely sure that when you had the timing light connected to plug number 2 you didn't get a flast at the 9 o'clock position?

It is possible that the ECU is not seeing every revolution but only every other....

You can try putting the car in the on position and turning it over by hand to see if you are sparking every 180 degrees on the crank.

what do you mean by turning it over by hand and see if you are sparking 180 at the crank? anyway. I found a diagram. here is what I have found out:
With the coil pack plugged in I am taking readings from the transistor plug.
Pin 1 has 7.7 ohms
Pin 2 has .606 M ohms
Pin 3 has 0(continuity)ground
Pin 5 has .606 M ohms
Pin 6 has 7.7 ohms

with the transistor pluged in I am taking reading from the Coil Pack plug.
Pin 1 has 39 M ohms and it took like 10 seconds for it to go from open to the 39 m ohms????? weird!
Pin 2 OPEN... I left it there for about 30 seconds.
Pin 3 has 7.26 M ohms
Pin 4 has 12 ohms

I have no idea what the readings are supposed to be but this is what I got!

edit: pin 1 of the coil pack to pin 6 of the transistor have continuity(they should) and pin 2 of the coil pack to pin 1 of the transistor have continuity(they should)

The readings through the coils look good...donno about the other ones.

Turn the key to the on position and rotate it with a ratchet in the crank. with the wires off and old plugs in the wires unless the ECU needs a certain measurement of RPM it should spark for you every 180 degrees.... donno how it would work with the ECU but if you get spark the first revolution and none the second we know that is bad.

Originally posted by crankbender
The readings through the coils look good...donno about the other ones.

Turn the key to the on position and rotate it with a ratchet in the crank. with the wires off and old plugs in the wires unless the ECU needs a certain measurement of RPM it should spark for you every 180 degrees.... donno how it would work with the ECU but if you get spark the first revolution and none the second we know that is bad.

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ok here is what happened:
1 & 4 sparked at the same time then 90º later 2 & 3 sparked at the same time it just kept doing the same thing every 90º??

edit: just so you know(i don't know if it matters) I was using the cam gear as a reference for the º's.

good that is how it should be. So we know that you have spark at teh correct time.

Do you have any way to log what the injector pulse is?

Do you have any way to see what the TPS is saying?

additionally plug the MAF back in and check the spark then too.

OK I am ready to dive back into this... I have just read everything and caught back up to speed.

Where are you at now in the diagnosis? Yes the 90* is fine at the gears its half the speed. I woudl also think to use a degree wheel to assure yourself. Also while you were cranking it over by hand and saw the plugs firing, where were the cylinders at in relation?

Have you physically checked the fuel pickup, gas tank, lines or anything?

I too am watching for an update. It sounds like the spark is where it should be in relation to the cam so the ignition system is ok. We need to verify that the pistons are in the right location then dive into the fuel system.

We can assume air is there. We now know spark is. That leaves fuel

yeah I'm sitting here in suspense

stupid little question..didnt bother reading past the 1st page but suprised noone asked...are you venting?

Originally posted by Hooah
stupid little question..didnt bother reading past the 1st page but suprised noone asked...are you venting?

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nah dude it would still run

at this point im assuming:

1. he got the car running and is having so much fun driving it that he forgot i was on the edge of my seat waiting for a conclusion

2. it was something really god damn stupid and he would feel like an idiot if he told us

3. he pushed the car into a river

Hey...ya bro please post your conclusion...if there is one

I also am having a problem...and it sounds similar...all though I haven't tried unpluging the MAS...it still sounds similar...I'd just like to know what solved your problem to make sure that is or isn't my problem...

that is if you fixed it yet...

Hey

I had the same exact problem as you! The cause of my issue was a clogged injectors. Two of the injectors were clogged full of rust. I drain the gas tank, replaced the filter and injectors and she is running like a champ. Pull the fuel rail and inspect those injectors. It's worth a try.

Ok today I fixed the car! alright this is all what I found out.... The gas had an ass load of water in it. so I drained the tank and put new gas in it, but it still wouldn't start. I took the TB off and I finally got a hold of an Idle speed control valve.... I took the old one off and a whole bunch of starter fluid poured out! hhhmm thats not good! put the new one in and hooked everything back up and.... bam...it still didn't start... LoL (the suspence is great ...huh) well I took the brake booster vacuum off and spayed starter fluid in there put the hose back on and it started for about 1 second.... I'm thinking this damn thing isn't getting any fuel ?? now before I have taken the fuel rail off twice and each time the injectors sprayed a good myst. I took it off again and all they did was trickle out..... damn bad injectors? all 4? nope. back when we first put the engine together and we kept having a fuel problem we finaly fixed it by taking the fuel pump out to find that where the pump mates with the hard line it wasn't sealing. So we cut off the hard line about half way up and put a peice of hose between the pump and the hard line and clamped each end....and it worked...but that was like 5 months ago. so I thought maybe it came loose or something. It was busted apart! I went and got a .73 cent peice of high press fuel line clamped that on there and guess what ...... the B!tch started!!!! I drove the car around all day .. runs great put about 70miles on. so yes I fixed the car and it cost me a whole .73 cents!!!!! the ICS and throttle closed posistion switch bad, maf harness bad, fronnt harness bad, fuel bad..... damn crazy!

Originally posted by boost_dependent
Ok today I fixed the car! alright this is all what I found out.... The gas had an ass load of water in it. so I drained the tank and put new gas in it, but it still wouldn't start. I took the TB off and I finally got a hold of an Idle speed control valve.... I took the old one off and a whole bunch of starter fluid poured out! hhhmm thats not good! put the new one in and hooked everything back up and.... bam...it still didn't start... LoL (the suspence is great ...huh) well I took the brake booster vacuum off and spayed starter fluid in there put the hose back on and it started for about 1 second.... I'm thinking this damn thing isn't getting any fuel ?? now before I have taken the fuel rail off twice and each time the injectors sprayed a good myst. I took it off again and all they did was trickle out..... damn bad injectors? all 4? nope. back when we first put the engine together and we kept having a fuel problem we finaly fixed it by taking the fuel pump out to find that where the pump mates with the hard line it wasn't sealing. So we cut off the hard line about half way up and put a peice of hose between the pump and the hard line and clamped each end....and it worked...but that was like 5 months ago. so I thought maybe it came loose or something. It was busted apart! I went and got a .73 cent peice of high press fuel line clamped that on there and guess what ...... the B!tch started!!!! I drove the car around all day .. runs great put about 70miles on. so yes I fixed the car and it cost me a whole .73 cents!!!!! the ICS and throttle closed posistion switch bad, maf harness bad, fronnt harness bad, fuel bad..... damn crazy!

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Ohhh...that is sooooooo good to hear...cause I believe my problem is that I used 255 o-rings on the fuel-pump and it isn't sealing correctly either...so I already bought a whole new fuel pump asembly hoping this will fix it...since mine sounded so similar to yours...I'm excited...I should have it tomorrow...

alright......now go reward yourself for couple cold ones. Yeah I had the same problem as you on the oring for the fuel pump line. It wasn't seated right with the fuel pump rack and that costed me 2 charred intake valves from running lean.

When you drained the fuel tank, did you see any rust deposits? Once it's rusted inside, it will continue to spread and cause this similiar problem. A friend of mine replaced fuel pump 3 times on his turboed AWD Caravan and eventually found out the real problem was the rust inside the tank. Good luck.

Originally posted by boost_dependent
Ok today I fixed the car! alright this is all what I found out.... The gas had an ass load of water in it. so I drained the tank and put new gas in it, but it still wouldn't start. I took the TB off and I finally got a hold of an Idle speed control valve.... I took the old one off and a whole bunch of starter fluid poured out! hhhmm thats not good! put the new one in and hooked everything back up and.... bam...it still didn't start... LoL (the suspence is great ...huh) well I took the brake booster vacuum off and spayed starter fluid in there put the hose back on and it started for about 1 second.... I'm thinking this damn thing isn't getting any fuel ?? now before I have taken the fuel rail off twice and each time the injectors sprayed a good myst. I took it off again and all they did was trickle out..... damn bad injectors? all 4? nope. back when we first put the engine together and we kept having a fuel problem we finaly fixed it by taking the fuel pump out to find that where the pump mates with the hard line it wasn't sealing. So we cut off the hard line about half way up and put a peice of hose between the pump and the hard line and clamped each end....and it worked...but that was like 5 months ago. so I thought maybe it came loose or something. It was busted apart! I went and got a .73 cent peice of high press fuel line clamped that on there and guess what ...... the B!tch started!!!! I drove the car around all day .. runs great put about 70miles on. so yes I fixed the car and it cost me a whole .73 cents!!!!! the ICS and throttle closed posistion switch bad, maf harness bad, fronnt harness bad, fuel bad..... damn crazy!

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I know it's a late reply, but for you folks that may read this later, i had similar problems myself. I ran through ALL the procedures described here. I finally broke down and hooked a multimeter (scantool would work fine too) to the aldl diagnostic port and got a reading of "O2 sensor." That was my problem. Everything i found b4 all that pointed to the MAF as well, but it was the O2 sensor causing it to run to rich, stumble on slow acceleration, and die and moderate acceleration.

this was a great thread. like a soap opera.

Hopefully this will help. Try checking your coolant temperature sensor. I am a honda fan and I once had the same problem, except my car would be hard to start once it got hot. A faulty coolant temperature sensor would tell the computer the coolant was cold. The ecu was trying to compensate for the cold coolant by giving too much gas. I too would try to give it more gas and it would die. It took me a week to find out what the problem was. If you have a shop manual for your eagle talon look for a graph for the coolant temperature sensor. By looking at the graph you will be to see how the sensor works. If I am not mistaking the voltage on hondas will drop as the temperature rises. When I checked my sensor my sensor when it was not working it gave me 4.67v. Tellling the computer the engine was cold when it wasn't. Hope this help and if you check your sensor and turns out to be ok. Look at the next possible sensor like an air temp sensor and check it.

Great to hear you guys really helping out with some very useful information. I also had the problem where the car ran w/o the MAS, but couldn't idle w/ the MAS. Replacing my EGR valve, ignition coil packs, and injector pigtails along with fuel injector cleaner fixed the problem.